The N-word penalty

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The N-word penalty

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The N-word penalty
Started by Mark L. Ford, Feb 23 2014 06:39 PM

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#1 Mark L. Ford
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Posted 23 February 2014 - 06:39 PM
This is all over the news-- in the link below, the New York Daily News. NFL expected to adopt 15-yard penalty for use of N-word on the field ...

Granted, racial slurs are offensive, bit om my opinion, this is ridiculous and about half a century too late. It would have to be enforced equally, and I imagine that it's used more commonly on the field by African-American players, in the same sense that it's used in rap music. Perhaps there have been some recent incidents some hard core racist player shouting that particular insult in the middle of a game, but you punish that with a fine, not stepping off 15 yards. And how could you even enforce it against the right party? A game official hears the word coming from somewhere in a crowd of players from both teams, then refers to his list of the most obnoxious players on each team, the officials confer and conclude, "Yeah, it was probably #32 on the offense". Or perhaps directional microphones are all being monitored by a designated language judge.

And, after you penalize one word, how many others will get added to the list? If someone refers to a bunch of Washington players as "redskins" during a game, will that count? It's purely political, lobbied for by a guy named John Wooten, the idea apparently being that if the NFL adopts the rule in the name of good will, it will trickle down to college and high school football, and the world will be a happier place. And it's a stupid idea.

#2 byron
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Posted 23 February 2014 - 06:49 PM
Agreed. This is a stupid idea.

#3 rhickok1109
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Posted 23 February 2014 - 06:59 PM

Mark L. Ford, on 23 Feb 2014 - 6:39 PM, said:
This is all over the news-- in the link below, the New York Daily News. NFL expected to adopt 15-yard penalty for use of N-word on the field ...

Granted, racial slurs are offensive, bit om my opinion, this is ridiculous and about half a century too late. It would have to be enforced equally, and I imagine that it's used more commonly on the field by African-American players, in the same sense that it's used in rap music. Perhaps there have been some recent incidents some hard core racist player shouting that particular insult in the middle of a game, but you punish that with a fine, not stepping off 15 yards. And how could you even enforce it against the right party? A game official hears the word coming from somewhere in a crowd of players from both teams, then refers to his list of the most obnoxious players on each team, the officials confer and conclude, "Yeah, it was probably #32 on the offense". Or perhaps directional microphones are all being monitored by a designated language judge.

And, after you penalize one word, how many others will get added to the list? If someone refers to a bunch of Washington players as "redskins" during a game, will that count? It's purely political, lobbied for by a guy named John Wooten, the idea apparently being that if the NFL adopts the rule in the name of good will, it will trickle down to college and high school football, and the world will be a happier place. And it's a stupid idea.

Is that the John Wooten who used to play guard for the Browns?

#4 JWL
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Posted 23 February 2014 - 08:02 PM
In MLB and the NBA, players can get thrown out of games and receive technical fouls, respectively, for magic words. There is also a lot less noise in those sports and the fans are closer to the action, especially in basketball. How many NFL fans really ever hear words that are said on the field?

This is just another thing for the refs to worry about.

#5 Mark L. Ford
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Posted 23 February 2014 - 08:44 PM
I'd add that I'm aware that this and other offensive words are going to come up in the trash talking that goes on across the line, but one has to expect that NFL players can take it as well as they dish it out. Trying to minimize serious physical injury is one thing. If a player is going to come away from the game with an emotional injury, then he's in the wrong line of work.

#6 SixtiesFan
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Posted 24 February 2014 - 12:39 AM
A friend of mine who has lived his whole life in Brooklyn and Queens once told me he had heard the N-word used on two occasions by whites and hundreds of times by blacks.

#7 oldecapecod 11
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Posted 24 February 2014 - 10:37 AM
NYC, 1940-1966, Yorkville - 1 block south of the "Rio Grande" that separated Yorkville from East Harlem - the term we used and heard most was "colored guys."
And, yes, when we played games against the colored teams, they frequently used the n-word to both praise and criticize each other for good or bad plays.

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#8 Mark L. Ford
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Posted 24 February 2014 - 11:24 AM
And although "colored" is way out of date, that's what the "C" stands for in NAACP. "African-American" takes too long to write or to say, although it's been the term of preference since 1988. "Black" is perfectly acceptable, as in the "Historically Black Universities" (HBUs) like Howard or Grambling or Florida A&M. I'm glad we reached the era where a person's skin color is no big deal. As Martin Luther King said in 1963, the ideal is to judge someone by the content of their character -- and in the case of an NFL player, his achievements on the field.

#9 nicefellow31
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Posted 24 February 2014 - 12:47 PM
rhickok1109, on 23 Feb 2014 - 6:59 PM, said:
Is that the John Wooten who used to play guard for the Browns?
Yes that "guy" is the John Wooten that played with the Browns and Redskins. Here's an interesting part of a book that talks about a situation on the Browns that resulted in Wooten's and Ross Fichtner's release.

http://books.google....ichtner&f=false

FYI. I officiate high school football. If you use a racial slur (any kind) or profanity you get a 15 yard penaltly. The profanity part is not heavily enforced, most usually tell the kids to knock it off, but the slur portion is.

#10 oldecapecod 11
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Posted 24 February 2014 - 02:57 PM

Mark L. Ford
Posted Today, 10:24 AM
"And although "colored" is way out of date,,,"

It is good of you to mention those facts concerning "colored."
In most instances, "black" is acceptable as well. In a recent conversation, one of the black participants asked of the group, "Was it the black guy or the white guy?"
I think it is only in formal writings or public orations that we hear "African-American." I have never heard it in the course of informal conversation just as I have never heard "laughing out loud" but I do see LOL every day of my online activity.
There was a time, and it still might be so, when the NAACP website was extolling the virtues of various "African-Americans" and raved about the accomplishments of Grant Fuhr as one of that group. If anything, Grant is an African-Canadian and I wonder if so much attention is paid to definition across the border to our North.
AY!

#11 rhickok1109
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Posted 24 February 2014 - 02:59 PM
oldecapecod 11, on 24 Feb 2014 - 2:57 PM, said:
Mark L. Ford
Posted Today, 10:24 AM
"And although "colored" is way out of date,,,"

It is good of you to mention those facts concerning "colored."
In most instances, "black" is acceptable as well. In a couple of recent conversation, one of the black participants asked of the group, "Was it the black guy or the white guy?"
I think it is only in formal writings or public orations that we hear "African-American." I have never heard it in the course of informal conversation just as I have never heard "laughing out loud" but I do see LOL every day of my online activity.
There was a time, and it still might be so, when the NAACP website was extolling the virtues of various "African-Americans" and raved about the accomplishments of Grant Fuhr as one of that group. If anything, Grant is an African-Canadian and I wonder if so much attention is paid to definition across the border to our North.
AY!
I know several Canadians who consider themselves Americans, since Canada is in North America. In fact, they resent the way some people in the United States arrogating "American" for themselves

#12 oldecapecod 11
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Posted 24 February 2014 - 03:26 PM
rhickok
Posted Today, 01:59 PM
"... I know several Canadians..."

I know several Canadians as well and I will poll. In fact, it is a very good time of the year to do this because there are hordes here in Florida for the winter. Most are among the so-called "snow birds." And, for the record, Ralph, at various gatherings, the good-natured jibes most often include "We Canadians do this. You Americans do that." and vice-versa. So, while I don't doubt your claim of resentment, I will see how much of it exists here.

#13 Teo
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Posted 24 February 2014 - 04:38 PM
Last season, umpire Roy Ellison (who is black) called Washington Redskins tackle Trent Williams a N... and was suspended one game without pay.
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#14 oldecapecod 11
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Posted 24 February 2014 - 04:59 PM
Teo
Posted Today, 03:38 PM
"Last season, umpire Roy Ellison..."

The following sentence appears in the Daily News article accessed by the LINK in the original post:

"...Left tackle Trent Williams later said that the N-word was not among the vulgar language uttered by umpire Roy Ellison..."

#15 Mark L. Ford
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Posted 24 February 2014 - 05:36 PM
rhickok1109, on 24 Feb 2014 - 2:59 PM, said:
I know several Canadians who consider themselves Americans, since Canada is in North America. In fact, they resent the way some people in the United States arrogating "American" for themselves

That's sad. It's like people in West Virginia considering themselves "Virginian". However, ours is the only nation on Earth that has "America" in its official name, and we're not the United States of Something Else. I think most of the citizens north of the U.S.of A. consider themselves "Canadian" and are very proud of it.

#16 65 toss power trap
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Posted 24 February 2014 - 06:25 PM
Teo, on 24 Feb 2014 - 4:38 PM, said:
Last season, umpire Roy Ellison (who is black) called Washington Redskins tackle Trent Williams a N... and was suspended one game without pay.
From my understanding, it was Williams who used the word, and Ellison either reacting to it or addressing it. Of the four words that Ellison was alleged to have said, none of them was that word, but two of them were not for mixed company.

#17 BD Sullivan
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Posted 24 February 2014 - 07:18 PM
nicefellow31, on 24 Feb 2014 - 12:47 PM, said:
Yes that "guy" is the John Wooten that played with the Browns and Redskins. Here's an interesting part of a book that talks about a situation on the Browns that resulted in Wooten's and Ross Fichtner's release.

http://books.google....ichtner&f=false

That incident marked the second year in a row that the Browns were involved in a race-related controversy. The year before, five black Browns players (Wooten, Leroy Kelly, Mike Howell, John Brown and Sidney Williams) decided to stage a holdout. Brown ended up being traded to the Steelers and Williams to the Giants, while the other three eventually re-signed, interestingly, with the assistance of Cleveland mayoral candidate Carl Stokes.

#18 JohnH19
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Posted 25 February 2014 - 12:23 PM
rhickok1109, on 24 Feb 2014 - 2:59 PM, said:
I know several Canadians who consider themselves Americans, since Canada is in North America. In fact, they resent the way some people in the United States arrogating "American" for themselves

Ralph, I hope and assume by the smiley face that your post was tongue in cheek as we Canadians do not consider ourselves American in any way, shape or form. I would feel nothing but embarrassment for any Canadians who resent people in the U.S. of A. for referring to themselves as American.

The African-Canadian issue is another matter. We don't hear the term very often up here. I have a son who is bi-racial and he refers to himself as black on the rare occasions that it comes up.

As for the new rule; isn't it mostly young African-Americans who loosely throw the N-word, particularly the one that ends in "ah", around? I assume the word that ends in "ah" would also draw a penalty flag.

#19 oldecapecod 11
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Posted 25 February 2014 - 02:03 PM

JohnH19
Posted Today, 11:23 AM
"... we Canadians do not consider ourselves American in any way..."

I believe that was and is quite clearly expressed by the CFL with their "quota" limiting the number of Americans per team. The CFL must have received some heat over that because the link to that section of their by-laws is not longer operable although certain statements concerning "quotas" can still be found.

"... son who is bi-racial..."

In Boston, as late as 1966, there was still severe intolerance of both bi-racial people and inter-racial relationships. We were quite friendly with three such couples, two of which moved to Canada where there was far less bigotry. Some may recall Judge Garrity's 1974 ruling that Boston schools were unconstitutionally segregated.

||||| end of JohnH19 referenced matter|||||

REDBLACKS

With a nickname stylized by ownership, the Ottawa REDBLACKS is a franchise sitting on the back burner and waiting for proper stadium facilities before beginning play in the CFL.
(A suggestion might be to follow the practice of the early Boston Patriots and play where they can while waiting but the CFL might oppose this. However, it is not relevant.)
One might shudder to think of the outrage here in our "land of the free" if such a name was proposed and an even greater outrage if it was accepted by one of the major leagues, be it MLB, NBA, NFL, or NHL.
Surely, we would see something akin to the Ottawa Native-American African-Americans. Or would it be Ottawa Native-Canadian African-Canadians?
And, just think if the team moved to Manitoba and became the Lake Pekwachnamaykoskwaskwaypinwanik Native-Canadian African-Canadians.

#20 Kelly1105
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Posted 25 February 2014 - 04:56 PM
I find it humerous that the NFL finds the N-word offensive (which it is) and use of it could be penalized but a linebacker can still tell a QB his mother was good in bed the night before in much harsher terms........and thats not offensive???? I guess using the F-word which is derogatory to gay men is still OK......This is a very slippery slope.

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Re: The N-word penalty

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#21 oldecapecod 11
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Posted 25 February 2014 - 05:21 PM
Kelly1105
Posted Today, 03:56 PM
"... slippery slope."

It is more like a slope of ice with nary a grappling hook in sight.

Someone above mentioned two words "not for mixed company." Anyone who has ever been on an NFL sideline could certainly never play a recording of the sideline exchanges at a meeting of the ladies' garden club. This includes vulgar berating of officials and it is assumed they are instructed to turn deaf ears to such "for the good of the game." Nonsense!

And, it has been going on for years.
Once upon a time, a DB named Don Shula made a particularly good play against the Bears right at the Chicago sideline. George Halas unleashed a verbal barrage that turned the air blue in the entire windy city - all directed at Shula. Shula got up, walked over to the Papa Bear and said words to this effect. "Mr. Halas, you are a Hungarian Catholic - just like me. I am very surprised to hear you use language like that to me." Halas was dumbfounded. Almost immediately, he apologized and said, "I'm sorry, young man. I apologize." Whereupon Shula looked him in the eye and dropped the F-U bomb and trotted away.

An NFL sideline has never been any different.

#22 Mark L. Ford
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Posted 25 February 2014 - 05:25 PM

oldecapecod 11, on 25 Feb 2014 - 2:03 PM, said:
REDBLACKS

With a nickname stylized by ownership, the Ottawa REDBLACKS is a franchise sitting on the back burner....
One might shudder to think of the outrage here in our "land of the free" if such a name was proposed and an even greater outrage if it was accepted by one of the major leagues, be it MLB, NBA, NFL, or NHL.

I instantly thought of the semi-pro football team in Watertown, New York, that traces its origins all the way back to 1896. They are, of course, Watertown Red and Black.

#23 TouchdownTimmy
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Posted 25 February 2014 - 10:15 PM
nicefellow31, on 24 Feb 2014 - 12:47 PM, said:
Yes that "guy" is the John Wooten that played with the Browns and Redskins. Here's an interesting part of a book that talks about a situation on the Browns that resulted in Wooten's and Ross Fichtner's release.

http://books.google....ichtner&f=false

FYI. I officiate high school football. If you use a racial slur (any kind) or profanity you get a 15 yard penaltly. The profanity part is not heavily enforced, most usually tell the kids to knock it off, but the slur portion is.
Our organization penalizes players for using both the N and F words. Our commissioner (who is white) demands that we don't let anyone use the N word or any other derogatory term. If we do, he calls us gutless. If a player uses it the first time and it's not malicious (which usually happens with their teammates) we warn them and tell the coach. The next time, we throw the flag. Every time that we have thrown the flag, the coach has been mad at the player, not us. EVERY time. I did a regional final in which the referee stopped the game, called both teams coaches and captains to the middle of the field and told them to stop it. They did.

When we talk about how bad an NFL conduct rule is always remember that what happens on Sunday, from end zone celebrations to sideline protocol, trickles down to youth and high school. One of the hardest things about officiating at the high school level is dealing with people who don't understand that our game is not the Sunday version.

So my question would be if these players have been told and disciplined about using the N-word in high school (and our rule has been in affect for quite some time) then why can't they stop or not say it in the NFL? I mean they are supposed to be older and wiser.

And as far as the other words that are used I was always taught two wrongs don't make a right?

(Yes I took my pic down. Felt like a hypocrite writing this with that photo id. Everyone makes mistakes.)

#24 JohnH19
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Posted 26 February 2014 - 12:45 PM
oldecapecod 11, on 25 Feb 2014 - 2:03 PM, said:

REDBLACKS

With a nickname stylized by ownership, the Ottawa REDBLACKS is a franchise sitting on the back burner and waiting for proper stadium facilities before beginning play in the CFL.
(A suggestion might be to follow the practice of the early Boston Patriots and play where they can while waiting but the CFL might oppose this. However, it is not relevant.)
One might shudder to think of the outrage here in our "land of the free" if such a name was proposed and an even greater outrage if it was accepted by one of the major leagues, be it MLB, NBA, NFL, or NHL.
Surely, we would see something akin to the Ottawa Native-American African-Americans. Or would it be Ottawa Native-Canadian African-Canadians?
And, just think if the team moved to Manitoba and became the Lake Pekwachnamaykoskwaskwaypinwanik Native-Canadian African-Canadians.

Just to clarify; the Redblacks (nothing to do with skin color) actually begin play this year in refurbished Frank Clair Stadium.

Also, the CFL can't pay the same salaries as the four leagues you mentioned but it is still a major league as opposed to being thought of as a minor league.

#25 oldecapecod 11
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Posted 26 February 2014 - 04:01 PM
JohnH19

"Just to clarify..."

Wonderful!
As of early this week, http://www.cfl.ca/ which opens with "This Is Our League" did not have the REDBLACKS (as stylized by ownership) listed in the schedule.

"Also, the CFL can't..."

There was no insinuation that the CFL was anything - major, minor or otherwise.
When one sees or hears the words "land of the free" preceded by the word "our," it is hard to believe anyone would think of any country other than the United States of America. Those words are in the last line of our National Anthem which has echoed across the plains and mountains and cities and farmlands of the entire globe - usually preceding or following victory.
So, the CFL, regardless of its level of pay (or play) would never be included among the major leagues of "OUR" "land of the free."

Additionally, whether red or black or otherwise, there are those who will use every opportunity to stir a bucket no matter what the contents.
This is exactly what is occurring. Frankly, I do not think an additional "Rule" is needed. It can easily be considered unsportsmanlike. Just enforce it.
Look at basketball. Tell me about "travelling."
There is a post above referencing high school sports.
Massachusetts, for one, includes offensive language under "Taunting" which also covers a multitude of misbehavior.

#26 JohnH19
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Posted 27 February 2014 - 01:03 AM
oldecapecod 11, on 26 Feb 2014 - 4:01 PM, said:
JohnH19

"Just to clarify..."

Wonderful!
As of early this week, http://www.cfl.ca/ which opens with "This Is Our League" did not have the REDBLACKS (as stylized by ownership) listed in the schedule.


They're in there. Click on the full schedule. They actually make their regular season debut here in Winnipeg.


#27 Reaser
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Posted 27 February 2014 - 02:43 AM
JohnH19, on 27 Feb 2014 - 01:03 AM, said:

They're in there. Click on the full schedule. They actually make their regular season debut here in Winnipeg.
Speaking of Winnipeg, glad to have Matthews. Been trying to tell my friends about him for the past couple years, including a multi-paragraph rant when Seattle was messing around with Antonio Bryant, T.O. and Braylon Edwards and I was complaining saying if 'we' need a WR that badly - and I didn't believe that 'we' did - that they should be going after guys like Chris Matthews. Led to me mentioning his name here and there ever since, and then the Seahawks actually go and sign him.

#28 luckyshow
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Posted 27 February 2014 - 03:48 PM
The Redblack would just be called the Purples or the Browns here as this would be the blending of the two colors. And I don't think anyone complains about the Browns, do they? (And very few who would would know about Paul Brown's existence)

Now, in Canada, maybe they'd be pissed if the team from Ottawa was called the Frogs or Pepsis (though Quebec would get more mad, I guess) Though, Canadians seem to get less offense from such things. There was a time when Canadians I knew said that "Canuck" was a derogatory name to call Canadians. Yet a few years later this became the nickname of an NHL hockey team and still is. And I don't think anyone complained.

Colors are weird anyway. St. John's wore red uniforms and were called Redmen. But after a time, "Indians" was a name papers sometimes used to refer to them and they had Indian headressed mascots at one time. When female teams like in basketball came about, they called themselves the Express, not the Red Women, or Squaws..

Outlawing cursing is funny. I am sure any rules on the book before now were put there with microphones in mind. With TV or radio in mind.

"Coloreds" or "colored folk" was never really considered derogatory. Just eventually it became declassé, so to speak, rather passé, and belittling. Like shvatza, which is a color in German or Yiddish (sort of), but is the same thing in the end.

As an aside, I once lived in San Jose and after a time learned to use San José. Of which I have benn slammed on line for being "unAmerican" for doing so....

They should rename the Falcons, the Crackers. Bring back a time-honored perjorative....

#29 Mark L. Ford
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Posted 27 February 2014 - 05:23 PM
Both nicefellow and Touchdown Timmy have pointed out that there's a penalty in their high school leagues for the "N" word, and Timmy mentioned the "F" word as well (which I assume incorporates the 12-letter M-bomb as well). I'll ask nicefellow, are there other words on the list of no-nos, or is it limited to a single insult?

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Posted 27 February 2014 - 08:29 PM
What are the officials supposed to say when they announce the penalty??

#31 oldecapecod 11
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Posted 27 February 2014 - 08:37 PM
Mark L. Ford
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"Both..."

Mark, the last two lines of the post above reference the situation that has existed in Massachusetts HS Sports for at least 15 years although there might have been a few revisions in the past ten years. If so, these have been minor and, if anything, increased the severity of the violations.
The attached link is for the MIAA manual - the MIAA being the Massachusetts Interscholastic Athletic Association which is the governing body of high school sports in the land of the bean and the cod.
The "patched" display is the handbook Rule regarding "Taunting" from pages 47 and 48. The N- and similar milder and more offensive words are considered taunting.
The penalty is expulsion.
I was very heavily involved in a situation during my tenure as Commissioner of the Cape and Islands League and will share this story with you in another message.
Sorry that you must type so much to enter the link but the issue concerning my ability to cut and paste has not yet been repaired. Help!

Well, I just tried three times to upload that file and it did not happen. Another problem?

I have sent the other page to you. You can post it here if you wish. I think it is good for others to see how a very concerned state treats this issue.

Remember: It's the land of the bean and the cod where Cabots speak only to Lodges and Lodges only to God.
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#32 nicefellow31
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Posted 28 February 2014 - 01:47 PM
Mark L. Ford, on 27 Feb 2014 - 5:23 PM, said:
Both nicefellow and Touchdown Timmy have pointed out that there's a penalty in their high school leagues for the "N" word, and Timmy mentioned the "F" word as well (which I assume incorporates the 12-letter M-bomb as well). I'll ask nicefellow, are there other words on the list of no-nos, or is it limited to a single insult?
There's no list, all we are told is "no profanity". F-bombs and MF-Bombs are definetely "no-no's". Again, normally if I hear profanity, I'll speak to the player and ask "did I hear what I think I heard?" or something like that and then remind them to clean up their language. That's preventitive officiating. If it continues, then the flag will drop. Any curse word that is proceded by the word "you" will get a flag everytime. Slurs can be classified as taunting and will draw a flag.

#33 luckyshow
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Posted 28 February 2014 - 03:19 PM
So I see this conversation has devolved into the typical baby talk adults use to reference vulgarity. 100% know exactly what "N-word ending with 'ah'" is, everyone thinks it, says it to themselves. SO, the need for code seems idiotic. This is different than saying such on the field, so what I am saying now has litle to do with that. It is the infantile need to actually count the letters in an M-word (I guess it isn't "Miss Congeniality") and the N-word ending in "ah" must be Neutella, correct?

I am not saying we write them out, but why the "fudge" not? We all know what we speak about, not one doesn't. This hypocracy is much worse when the supposed pious bark about it since supposedly they shouldn't know these words, but do. And to them just thinking them is a sin.

Oh, never mind. Fiddlesticks!

#34 Mark L. Ford
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Posted 28 February 2014 - 03:40 PM
The reason, of course, is that there actually is a prohibition against using profanity and vulgarity on the Forum, which is why you never see it come up. I was admonished a couple of years ago for that, and it makes sense, or else we would start feeling free to call each other things with the same number of letters as Miss Congeneality and Snap-for-brains and the like.

Silly? Maybe, but it would be even sillier for a discussion about football history to escalate into a bitter argument. You've seen the type, the ones where "A" replies to "B", who thinks he has no choice but to respond with something even stronger; then "A" feels that he must put "B" in his place, and "B" feels he needs to teach "A" a lesson, etc. And then the thread becomes nothing but two idiots trading insults.

#35 Kelly1105
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Posted 28 February 2014 - 04:27 PM
Mark L. Ford, on 28 Feb 2014 - 3:40 PM, said:
And then the thread becomes nothing but two idiots trading insults.

Sadly even without the vulgarities it often comes down to this so F it.

#36 oldecapecod 11
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Posted 28 February 2014 - 04:53 PM
lucky
Today, 02:19 PM
"So I see..."

Please make that, at best, 99-44/100ths percent. Some people were referencing Nehemiah and implying their brethren might purify or rebuild as he did so many moons ago.
(Neutella, by the way, does not end with "h" or should that be aitch - or the Gaelic haitch? Whoops! Better watch out or the wrath of the awakened echoes will be upon me.)

Fie! Whoops again... an F-word.

And... code is hardly idiotic. In fact, it is the preferred method of communication throughout the Sport this organization and forum chooses to direct its focus. (We are struggling here trying not to end with preposition. Fortunately, unlike vulgarity and profanity, ending with preposition has not become a form of communication up with which we shall not put. (Credit Winnie please.)

Now, whether the pious or the sinful bark such reached a stage of such execration is really not the issue. The issue is simply to discuss the validity of the rule or the futility of opposing such a rule because it now exists.

In spite of the dollars involved and the things Rosie Goodwill directs you to buy (and you dutifully obey) the purpose of the N-F-League is entertainment and a large number of those being entertained are children... those who have not yet reached their m-. (Hmmm... better spell majority.)
Thus, it is entertainment in a form of education and anything that can be done to cleanse the education process will be a boon to m-. (There I go again - mankind.)

So please, do not be critical of a forum which is both education and informative and FREE to those who wish to just lurk (as I did in the late '90s) or choose to participate with no restriction as to age, race or gender.

I, for one, do not want my grandchildren to view this forum and read words that I would not use in their presence - or in the presence of most, for that matter.

#37 Mark L. Ford
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Posted 28 February 2014 - 06:44 PM
Kelly1105, on 28 Feb 2014 - 4:27 PM, said:

Sadly even without the vulgarities it often comes down to this so F it.
Agreed.

#38 Hater
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Posted 28 February 2014 - 10:07 PM
luckyshow, on 28 Feb 2014 - 3:19 PM, said:
So I see this conversation has devolved into the typical baby talk adults use to reference vulgarity. 100% know exactly what "N-word ending with 'ah'" is, everyone thinks it, says it to themselves. SO, the need for code seems idiotic. This is different than saying such on the field, so what I am saying now has litle to do with that. It is the infantile need to actually count the letters in an M-word (I guess it isn't "Miss Congeniality") and the N-word ending in "ah" must be Neutella, correct?

I am not saying we write them out, but why the "fudge" not? We all know what we speak about, not one doesn't. This hypocracy is much worse when the supposed pious bark about it since supposedly they shouldn't know these words, but do. And to them just thinking them is a sin.

Oh, never mind. Fiddlesticks!

I'm sorry that you think it's baby talk to reference the "N-Word," but speaking as a black man I certainly appreciate it. To you it might be "infantile" to see someone write "N-Word", but then again that placeholder isn't really there for your benefit, it's there out of respect to people for whom that word carries significantly more weight than run of the mill profanities like "BS" or "MF'er." To be black and have someone hurl that word at you, feels less like an insult and more like a physical transgression, somewhere between shoving you or spitting on you. Even outside of that context, as in a discussion such as this, to hear it spoken or see it spelled out still turns a knot in the pit of my stomach. I don't expect you to relate to that, but I hope that you can still recognize the very real power that your words have, and choose them accordingly.

#39 3243
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Posted 01 March 2014 - 11:18 PM
I also am an African-American man and I choose to not use either version of the "N-word" in my conversation, because it has a too long history of ugliness. I even view the version with the "-ah" ending syllable as being an internalized version of this highly derogatory term, seeing as a lot of other black people feel this permutation of the "N-word" is okay to use among ourselves. I also feel that if we continue to use it among ourselves, all we are doing is giving members of other ethnicities tacit permission to use either version of the word themselves, and be able to justify it by pointing out that "black people call each other that word all of the time."

And there you have my two cents on this topic. That said, I would not bother penalizing teams for using this or other controversial words on the field or sidelines. Just fine the persons who do insist on using it.

#40 rhickok1109
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Posted 02 March 2014 - 09:18 AM
3243, on 01 Mar 2014 - 11:18 PM, said:
I also am an African-American man and I choose to not use either version of the "N-word" in my conversation, because it has a too long history of ugliness. I even view the version with the "-ah" ending syllable as being an internalized version of this highly derogatory term, seeing as a lot of other black people feel this permutation of the "N-word" is okay to use among ourselves. I also feel that if we continue to use it among ourselves, all we are doing is giving members of other ethnicities tacit permission to use either version of the word themselves, and be able to justify it by pointing out that "black people call each other that word all of the time."

And there you have my two cents on this topic. That said, I would not bother penalizing teams for using this or other controversial words on the field or sidelines. Just fine the persons who do insist on using it.
I'm not sure fines have much effect on behavior, unless they're enormous. With what players make, the typical fine can pretty much be looked at like a donation to charity: The players gives something to the NFL and lowers his taxes.

But if the team is penalized, coaches and teammates are going to get on the offender, and I think that's a much more effective preventive.

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oldecapecod 11
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Re: The N-word penalty

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The N-word penalty
Started by Mark L. Ford, Feb 23 2014 06:39 PM

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47 replies to this topic

#41 luckyshow
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Posted 02 March 2014 - 05:34 PM
The "babytalk" was mostly in referernce to the "F-word" and the multi-letter M-word or extension, the Sh word, etc.

Blame Richard Pryor for popularizing to the known (western) world to the vernacular black usage of the dergogatory profanity N-word. Perhaps.

So, we act like children about the oldest word passed down through the Anglo-Saxons (a powerful word, that N-word, as few other words survived the test of time and Samuel Johnson. The irregular verbs and the word "the" being a few others.

Most children know more usages of that word and more curses than any adult does. So our pedantic childishness, whether codified here or elsewhere, is done for the dainty ears of the 0.56% of us?

The N-word iss omething else. For if we ever did reach a supposedly colorless society what exactly would be told to all those dainty eared children when they would hear black using the N word with an "ah" sound at the end (and is this truly different than the "akst" for "Ask"? or is it really an affectation that is differnt? Anyway, how would it be explained top all those innocent ears that would hear the sland verison of this slang?

Actuallyw e do live in a pretty childish culture. Most adult baby boomers who will never grow up. We deify our pop culture in so many ways, some legit, maybe others not so much. In art, music, popular entertainments, probably our worship of celebrities and so-called heroes.

Or maybe not. Since pacifists would consider war itself a childish behavior we seem incapable of escaping. Violence towards others. Our worship of the tools of killing. Etc.

Our society now where pornography has become ordinary in some senses, where most of our younger generation can not utter very many sentences in a row without cursing, where a lot of what passes for humor is degradation of one sort or another, or just about poohing and peeing....I guess we are the children we are trying to protect. And protect ourselves from.

When I was growing up, this N word meant one thing and that thing was awful. I don't really know if it were thrown around as endearing in the inner neighborhoods, as they once were referred to. Was it?

When Lenny Bruce called a Jew a "Kike" it was shocking because 1)such words were closeted closely at that time and 2)it wasn't a word thrown about by Jews as a defensive usage and usurptation of that word. And so it faded instead of grew stronger.

I guess, what do I know...

#42 rhickok1109
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Posted 02 March 2014 - 06:59 PM
luckyshow, on 02 Mar 2014 - 5:34 PM, said:
When Lenny Bruce called a Jew a "Kike" it was shocking because 1)such words were closeted closely at that time and 2)it wasn't a word thrown about by Jews as a defensive usage and usurptation of that word. And so it faded instead of grew stronger.

I guess, what do I know...

I'm not sure you're right about that. A woman friend of mine has talked about going to a camp for Jewish kids and she still remembers a camp song that featured the word "kike." That would have been before anybody heard of Lenny Bruce.

#43 Gabe
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Posted 02 March 2014 - 07:20 PM
Still not clear to me why refraining from explicit mention of a racial epithet or profanity is considered childish. I would also mention that my teenage and grownup kids and their friends do not meet the description of being unable to speak more than a few sentences without curses or using humor that is degradation - and they can be very funny.

Getting back to the issue of the penalty for use of the word, it seems to me that there are all sorts of gestures that I find less offensive which get penalized for unsportsmanlike conduct or taunting,

#44 Kelly1105
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Posted 03 March 2014 - 10:56 AM
I have read thru all the posts here on this topic and various internet and newspaper articles and I still can't understand how the NFL thinks this is a good idea they way they are doing it. They are trying to eliminate the use of one specific word???? So what they are saying is if lets say just for example a player is a racist he could use every other racial epitath that he knows referencing someone who is black but not that one word and he would not get a penalty?

Let me be clear I don't use the word and I know its offensive but there are plenty of other offensive words out there that can do as much damage if not more but apparently they are OK. This is like giving a sexually explicit novel to a 10 year old and you only censored out the F-word.

Eliminate all racial slurs or none of them. Partial efforts just lead to confusion. I can't wait until a game is decided because a referee thought he heard the word used and then blames the wrong player. Oh the chaos that would ensue.

#45 TouchdownTimmy
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Posted 04 March 2014 - 08:19 PM
Two things:

After visiting Africa, Pryor took a different view of the N-word and vowed to never use it again.

Second, the NFL will figure out a way to make the rule work. We always make a big deal about how this rule or that won't be able to be policed. Was it last year that illegal helmet contact by ball carriers was supposed to change the way the game was played and called? How many times have we seen that penalty called?

The players, coaches and officials will adjust.

#46 Kelly1105
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Posted 04 March 2014 - 09:12 PM
That's true.........not to be argumentative however if they aren't going to call it what's the point of making the rule?

#47 TouchdownTimmy
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Posted 05 March 2014 - 09:09 PM
Because if it's not in the rule book (ie the tuck rule) you have nothing to stand on.

#48 luckyshow
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Posted 11 March 2014 - 12:12 AM
I guess I was mixing oranges and tangelos. The childish side to my "argument" referred to the F word, the S word, the long M word.

I did go in the N word direction analogizing Lenny Bruce to Pryor. There are two discussions going on, or was it just me? The rule does not pertain to saying F, or SH, just to N. So, F is ok? What percent of those watching NFL games does not know the F word? Is that some sort of original sin for censorish moralists?

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When a player made a good play, he didn't jump up and down.
Those kinds of plays were expected."
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