After Ray Guy, next best punters?

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After Ray Guy, next best punters?

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After Ray Guy, next best punters?
Started by Chrisskreager, Aug 03 2014 01:45 AM

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#1 Chrisskreager
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Posted 03 August 2014 - 01:45 AM
Ray Guy is obviously the greatest punter ever, but you never hear about the other great punters.

Who would you consider #2-#5 if you were discussing great punters?

#2 oldecapecod 11
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Posted 03 August 2014 - 05:15 AM
You have to remember that the best punters are already in Canton: Baugh and Lary who are head and shoulders above the rest, plus Van B, Waterfield, Trippi and Doak Walker. I never saw Thorpe play but I suppose he would be in there too.

So, here's five who wouldn't hurt you.
I think Don Chandler is the most deserving. If you look at the year he led the league, he did so with a 44.6 average. Lifetime, he was 43.4 - pretty darn consistent.
The other four: Reggie Roby, Jerrel Wilson, Donny Anderson and Dave Jennings. (Okay, so what! Yes; another Giant.)
#3 JohnMaxymuk
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Posted 03 August 2014 - 09:54 AM
I mean this as a sincere question. I am not disputing that Guy was an excellent punter, but why was the "greatest punter of all time" only named a first time all pro three times in a 14 year career?
#4 paulksandiego
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Posted 03 August 2014 - 10:03 AM
I think Shane Lechler gives Ray Guy a run for the money as the greatest "pure punter" of all time....Tommy Davis was supposed to be pretty darned good too.

#5 paulksandiego
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Posted 03 August 2014 - 10:04 AM
JohnMaxymuk, on 03 Aug 2014 - 09:54 AM, said:
I mean this as a sincere question. I am not disputing that Guy was an excellent punter, but why was the "greatest punter of all time" only named a first time all pro three times in a 14 year career?
Actually, he was a first team all-pro from 1973 to 1978....He was three-time AP 1st team all-pro only because the AP didn't name a punter on their teams until 1976.

#6 Versatile John
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Posted 03 August 2014 - 11:48 AM
Tommy Davis, Jerrell Wilson and Reggie Roby would have to be strongly considered. Of those three, I think Wilson was the best, but I never saw much of Davis, however.

#7 coach tj troup
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Posted 03 August 2014 - 12:33 PM
....dr. z would rave about tommy davis in phone conversations. he had 82 yard punt vs. vikings(9-30-62), and 79 yard punt vs. bears(10-14-62). not that two long punts puts anyone in the best category, yet the guy could boom the ball in the winds of kezar......a trait paul stated limited other punters. as a combination kicker/punter he was certainly one of the best of his era. in slingin' sam's great game against detroit in '43....he had 10 punts/quick kicks for 519 yards.....so there is no doubt he would rank high on the all-time list. am sure if we all gave a list of 10 most effective(best?) punters many of the same names would appear. though he might not make many lists....saw bobby joe green punt many times.....and he was consistent, and excellent.

#8 Versatile John
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Posted 03 August 2014 - 12:44 PM
Shane Lechler, statistically, has to be at least considered. That guy has a great case as well.

Not saying he is HOF worthy, but Rich Camarillo was a damned good one.

Which begs another question: Steve Tasker, as a special teams phenom, does he belong?

#9 oldecapecod 11
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Posted 03 August 2014 - 01:10 PM
Versatile John
Posted Today, 12:44 PM
"... Which begs another question: Steve Tasker, as a special teams phenom, does he belong?"

For sure; but this might give them ideas for another category?
Special Teams Phenoms
Wedge Busters
Long Snappers
Holders
Personal Protectors
guys who are critical to success - and championships - but guys that don't get much recognition (unless you're a Mickey Walker in New York - and I don't mean the Toy Bulldog.)

#10 Moran
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Posted 03 August 2014 - 01:42 PM
Ken Strong was no slouch when it came to kicking the ball - supposedly he punted a ball 70 yards in high school -
this list is interesting - some names on there I wouldn't expect to see

NFL Single Game Playoffs Longest Punt Leaders

1. Ed Danowski 76 New York Giants vs. Detroit Lions, December 15, 1935
Mike Horan 76 Denver Broncos vs. Buffalo Bills, January 12, 1992

3. Tom Landry+ 75 New York Yankees vs. San Francisco 49ers, December 4, 1949

4. Charlie Conerly 72 New York Giants vs. Cleveland Browns, December 17, 1950
Yale Lary+ 72 Detroit Lions vs. Cleveland Browns, December 27, 1953

6. Ray Guy+ 71 Oakland Raiders vs. San Diego Chargers, January 11, 1981

#11 Versatile John
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Posted 03 August 2014 - 01:55 PM
I have heard Randall Cunningham holds the record for the longest punt in Eagles' history. Do not hold me to that, but it is just something I have heard.

He was an All-American punter at UNLV.

#12 Keith Yowell
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Posted 03 August 2014 - 02:16 PM
Versatile John, on 03 Aug 2014 - 1:55 PM, said:
I have heard Randall Cunningham holds the record for the longest punt in Eagles' history. Do not hold me to that, but it is just something I have heard.

He was an All-American punter at UNLV.
Yes, Cunningham's 91-yard punt against the Giants in 1989 is the longest in franchise history. Keep in mind that Cunningham only punted 12 times during his career with the Eagles (and averaged 51.7 yards).

#13 Versatile John
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Posted 03 August 2014 - 02:42 PM
I have also read where the punt went 70 yards and bounced (or rolled) the other 21 yards.

#14 oldecapecod 11
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Posted 03 August 2014 - 03:14 PM
Our own frequent visitor, luckyshow, has a very interesting list concerning punts.

http://www.luckyshow...l/LongPunts.htm

#15 JuggernautJ
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Posted 03 August 2014 - 04:56 PM
oldecapecod 11, on 03 Aug 2014 - 05:15 AM, said:
You have to remember that the best punters are already in Canton: Baugh and Lary who are head and shoulders above the rest, plus Van B, Waterfield, Trippi and Doak Walker. I never saw Thorpe play but I suppose he would be in there too.

So, here's five who wouldn't hurt you.
I think Don Chandler is the most deserving. If you look at the year he led the league, he did so with a 44.6 average. Lifetime, he was 43.4 - pretty darn consistent.
The other four: Reggie Roby, Jerrel Wilson, Donny Anderson and Dave Jennings. (Okay, so what! Yes; another Giant.)

+1, especially re: Sammy Baugh and Jim Thorpe.

Jerrel Wilson is my favorite specialist/punter ever (though many here decry his propensity for being blocked).

I loved watching Donnie Anderson as a runner (and receiver) but didn't recall him as a great punter. I'll have to read up on that. Thanks!

#16 byron
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Posted 03 August 2014 - 05:29 PM
Moran, on 03 Aug 2014 - 1:42 PM, said:
Ken Strong was no slouch when it came to kicking the ball - supposedly he punted a ball 70 yards in high school -
this list is interesting - some names on there I wouldn't expect to see

LONGEST PUNT

76 Ed Danowski, NFC: N.Y. Giants vs. Detroit, 1935
Mike Horan, AFC: Denver vs. Buffalo, 1991

72 Charlie Conerly, NFC-D: N.Y. Giants vs. Cleveland, 1950
Yale Lary, NFC: Detroit vs. Cleveland, 1953

71 Ray Guy, AFC: Oakland vs. San Diego, 1980

In 1948, Glen Dobbs had punts of 80, 74, 66, 54 and 50 yards during the AAFC season. His career average is 46.4; not too shabby, although he did have 7 punts blocked (career).

If there's someone who should probably be considered in the NFL, it would be Horace Gillom. He changed the way punting was done "back in the day" with a deeper drop and high, long kicks.

#17 74_75_78_79_
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Posted 03 August 2014 - 06:00 PM
Joe Theismann.......................jk!

No, seriously, Sammy Baugh and Lech are the first two to come to my mind. As for the punter who could have most-easily transitioned to MLB if asked to? Reggie Roby.

#18 Rupert Patrick
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Posted 03 August 2014 - 10:18 PM
paulksandiego, on 03 Aug 2014 - 10:03 AM, said:
I think Shane Lechler gives Ray Guy a run for the money as the greatest "pure punter" of all time....Tommy Davis was supposed to be pretty darned good too.

Lechler may well be the best punter in pro football history, but a lot of people overlook the fact that Ray Guy has three Super Bowl rings, which is the most of any punter in history. There are nine punters who played on two SB winning teams (Donny Anderson, Larry Seiple, Bobby Walden, Craig Colquitt, Sean Landeta, Barry Helton, John Jett, Tom Rouen and Ken Walter), but only Guy played on three.

#19 Bryan
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Posted 04 August 2014 - 09:14 AM
JuggernautJ, on 03 Aug 2014 - 4:56 PM, said:

I loved watching Donnie Anderson as a runner (and receiver) but didn't recall him as a great punter. I'll have to read up on that. Thanks!

From what I've read, Anderson's left-footed punts were usually very high and also had a weird spin which made his punts difficult to judge and nearly impossible to return. Roger Bird's botched return in SB II was probably the big play of the game. Anderson punted 65 times for the Packers in 1967, and gave up a total of 22 return yards on the season. Anderson himself returned 9 punts for 98 yards that season.

#20 conace21
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Posted 04 August 2014 - 01:42 PM
I had always assumed that Guy was the greatest punter who ever lived. Reading Dr. Z made me question that argument. Guy's average isn't that impressive. His supporters claim he sacrificed punting yards for hang time. Z dismissed him as a middle of the end zone punter. I haven't done much of a study myself, so I'm not sure.
I do know that his fame was probably responsible for his selection as punter on the Super Bowl silver anniversary team. He really wasn't that special in the Super Bowl, aside from the one handed leaping catch, which ranks up there with the Ricky Sanders fumble-and-recovery on a kickoff as plays that could have swung the tide in an oncoming blowout. But his punting numbers weren't that special. He had a nice high 51 yard boom against Minn, and several good kicks against Wash, but he allied Darrell Green to get his hands in a punt and bring it back 34 yards.
I did note that the only touchback he had was on the leaping grab, which naturally must have thrown off his rhythm. Many punters who manage to corrall a bad snap are lucky bot to shank it. Guy boomed it 42 yards.

Versatile John wondered about Steve Tasker. In the Archives board, underneath Buffalo Bills discussion questions, there was a lengthy discussion about Tasker n the HOF. I loved Tasker, but recall wondering Tasker was really the greatest special teams player who ever lived, or just the most famous special teams player who ever lives. I wonder the same thing about Ray Guy (among punters) and have read the discussion on this board with great interest.
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Re: After Ray Guy, next best punters?

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After Ray Guy, next best punters?
Started by Chrisskreager, Aug 03 2014 01:45 AM

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#21 Bob Gill
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Posted 04 August 2014 - 01:57 PM
I don't think Guy was the best punter either, but he does merit a place in the discussion, so although I probably wouldn't have voted for him, I don't think he was an unreasonable choice for the Hall of Fame. I believe I would vote for Lechler when the time comes.

About Thorpe: Years ago, around 1990, I went through all the available play-by-play accounts of the Canton Bulldogs' games from 1915 to 1919 and compiled the stats. I wrote them up in a Coffin Corner article that I think I called "The Legend Comes to Life." It was something like that, anyway, and you can find it on this site if you want to check, but as I remember, Thorpe's punting was off the charts for his era, and I mean way off. In general, the punters were averaging about 35 yards, but he was around 42. (He was just about as far above everybody else in ball-carrying too, just for the record.)

Nobody has really mentioned the 1920s, so let me be the first to say Verne Lewellen was easily the best punter of that time. (And thanks again to David Neft for going through all those newspaper accounts from those days.)

#22 Bryan
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Posted 04 August 2014 - 02:12 PM
Bob Gill, on 04 Aug 2014 - 1:57 PM, said:
Nobody has really mentioned the 1920s, so let me be the first to say Verne Lewellen was easily the best punter of that time. (And thanks again to David Neft for going through all those newspaper accounts from those days.)

What about Pete Henry?

#23 Reaser
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Posted 04 August 2014 - 02:31 PM
Driscoll would make the list for best punters of that era ...

#24 Bob Gill
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Posted 04 August 2014 - 02:39 PM
I don't know about Driscoll as a punter, but he was -- and always will be, unless they reshape the ball -- the greatest of all the dropkickers. And like Lewellen, he was an outstanding player even when he wasn't kicking.

#25 oldecapecod 11
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Posted 04 August 2014 - 02:45 PM
http://www.footballd...-punting-netavg

The following is a list of the NFL all-time career punting leaders ranked by punting net average. Statistics are current through the 2013 NFL season and include stats accrued in NFL, AFL and APFA games.
Net Average statistics are only available for 1976-2013 seasons.
Career Leaders
Leaders based on 250 punts
Punting
Player Gms Num Yds Avg Lg TB In20 Blk Net
1. Tommy Davis, 1959-1969 138 511 22,833 44.7 82 0 0 2 44.5
2. Yale Lary, 1952-1964 133 503 22,279 44.3 73 0 0 4 43.9
3. Sammy Baugh, 1937-1952 165 338 15,245 45.1 85 0 0 9 43.9
4. Dave Lewis, 1970-1973 56 285 12,447 43.7 63 0 0 0 43.7
5. Jerry Norton, 1954-1964 131 358 15,671 43.8 78 0 0 2 43.5
6. Horace Gillom, 1950-1956 77 385 16,872 43.8 80 0 0 5 43.3
7. Bob Scarpitto, 1961-1968 102 283 12,408 43.8 87 0 0 4 43.2
8. Don Chandler, 1956-1967 154 660 28,678 43.5 90 0 0 4 43.2
9. Norm Van Brocklin, 1949-1960 140 523 22,413 42.9 72 0 0 3 42.6
10. Danny Villanueva, 1960-1967 110 488 20,862 42.8 68 0 0 2 42.6
11. Sam Baker, 1953-1969 195 703 29,938 42.6 72 0 0 2 42.5
12. Bobby Joe Green, 1960-1973 187 970 41,317 42.6 74 0 0 3 42.5
13. Pat Richter, 1963-1970 103 338 14,183 42.0 72 0 0 0 42.0
14. Curley Johnson, 1960-1969 129 559 23,651 42.3 73 0 0 6 41.9
15. Bob Waterfield, 1945-1952 91 315 13,367 42.4 88 0 0 5 41.8
16. Ron Widby, 1968-1973 81 368 15,448 42.0 84 0 0 4 41.5
17. Jim Norton, 1960-1968 125 522 21,961 42.1 79 0 0 7 41.5
18. Paul Maguire, 1960-1970 151 795 33,137 41.7 82 0 0 4 41.5
19. Max McGee, 1954-1967 148 256 10,647 41.6 63 0 0 2 41.3
20. Jim Fraser, 1962-1968 72 278 11,737 42.2 75 0 0 7 41.2
21. Fred Morrison, 1950-1956 84 281 11,731 41.7 70 0 0 4 41.2
22. King Hill, 1958-1969 123 368 15,181 41.3 80 0 0 1 41.1
23. Billy Van Heusen, 1968-1976 109 574 23,936 41.7 78 2 4 4 41.1
24. Jerrel Wilson, 1963-1978 217 1,072 46,139 43.0 72 17 39 12 41.0
25. Dennis Partee, 1968-1975 111 519 21,417 41.3 73 0 0 5 40.9
26. Tom McNeill, 1967-1973 66 317 13,038 41.1 81 0 0 2 40.9
27. Mike Eischeid, 1966-1974 112 565 23,296 41.2 72 0 0 5 40.9
28. Billy Lothridge, 1964-1972 104 532 21,792 41.0 75 0 0 3 40.7
29. Gary Collins, 1962-1971 127 336 13,764 41.0 73 0 0 2 40.7
30. Thomas Morstead, 2009-2013 80 296 13,936 47.1 70 25 97 1 40.7
31. Pat Studstill, 1961-1972 147 560 22,764 40.6 78 0 0 1 40.6
32. Adrian Burk, 1950-1956 70 474 19,365 40.9 75 0 0 4 40.5
33. Steve O'Neal, 1969-1973 70 337 13,725 40.7 98 0 0 2 40.5
34. Bobby Walden, 1964-1977 194 974 40,529 41.6 76 18 35 5 40.4
35. Ed Brown, 1954-1965 154 493 19,994 40.6 78 0 0 5 40.1
36. Tom Landry, 1950-1955 70 338 13,651 40.4 69 0 0 3 40.0
37. Mike Mercer, 1961-1970 119 308 12,473 40.5 77 0 0 4 40.0
38. Julian Fagan, 1970-1973 56 299 12,100 40.5 71 0 0 5 39.8
39. Earl Girard, 1948-1957 114 397 15,927 40.1 72 0 0 5 39.6
40. Donny Anderson, 1966-1974 126 387 15,326 39.6 65 0 0 1 39.5
41. Andy Lee, 2004-2013 160 869 40,099 46.1 82 84 272 3 39.5
42. Britton Colquitt, 2010-2013 64 319 14,616 45.8 67 21 102 1 39.3
43. Dustin Colquitt, 2005-2013 142 744 33,386 44.9 81 66 285 4 39.3
44. Brett Kern, 2008-2013 96 432 19,350 44.8 71 32 157 3 39.3
45. Brandon Fields, 2007-2013 112 536 25,092 46.8 74 46 184 2 39.3
46. Donnie Jones, 2004-2013 150 818 37,210 45.5 80 68 259 4 39.2
47. Kevin Huber, 2009-2013 78 390 17,250 44.2 75 36 133 1 39.1
48. Roy Zimmerman, 1940-1948 84 278 11,065 39.8 67 0 0 5 39.1
49. Larry Seiple, 1967-1977 150 633 25,347 40.0 73 6 19 5 39.0
50. Shane Lechler, 2000-2013 222 1,102 52,404 47.6 80 150 356 4 38.9

#26 Teo
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Posted 04 August 2014 - 03:27 PM
Something I find impressive about Guy is that the punters that are selected to the Pro Bowl usually are for mediocre/bad teams, and the reason is that they tend to punt more and from deep their territory, which helms to a better average, while Guy, when he was chosen to the Pro Bowl was constantly on playoff-bound teams. I agree that is impossible to measure where in the gield each punt took place and I also think that Shane Lechler is superior than Guy, since most of his career was spent on bad teams and his average is impressive even for today, when punters have better avg. than in the 70s and 80s.

#27 ronfitch
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Posted 04 August 2014 - 04:43 PM
Rupert Patrick, on 03 Aug 2014 - 10:18 PM, said:

Lechler may well be the best punter in pro football history, but a lot of people overlook the fact that Ray Guy has three Super Bowl rings, which is the most of any punter in history. There are nine punters who played on two SB winning teams (Donny Anderson, Larry Seiple, Bobby Walden, Craig Colquitt, Sean Landeta, Barry Helton, John Jett, Tom Rouen and Ken Walter), but only Guy played on three.

Anderson was not the primary punter for the '66 Packers, Don Chandler was. Chander punted 60 times that season, Anderson twice. The following season, they essentially flipped on punting duties with Anderson punting 65 times and Chandler punting once.

#28 oldecapecod 11
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Posted 04 August 2014 - 05:30 PM
Here's the first 25 of 349 "top" punters.
If you click on the name, the little history blurb appears.
Enjoy...

http://www.ranker.co...nters/reference

List of Famous Football Punters

List of the most famous (American) football punters in the history of the sport, listed by popularity with photos of the players when available. There have been many legendary punters in the NFL and NCAA, and you'll find all of them on this list below. Some of these men are considered to be the best punters to ever play the game, and if you're looking for a specific football player you can look for them by using the "search" function on this list. These amazing punters may currently be active while others have been retired for quite sometime. This list of the top punters in American football includes all the greats from both the NFL and college football.

This list answers the questions, "Who is the greatest punter of all time?" and "Who are the best punters of all time?"

Name / Born
Sammy Baugh 1914
Samuel Adrian "Slingin' Sammy" Baugh was an American football player and coach. He played college football for the Horned Frogs at Texas Christian University, where he was a two-time All-American.
Norm Van Brocklin 1926
Norman Mack "Norm" Van Brocklin, nicknamed "The Dutchman", was an American football quarterback, punter, and coach in the National Football League. Van Brocklin was inducted into the Pro Football Hall of Fame in 1971.
Earl Morrall 1934
Danny White 1952
Jim Thorpe 1888
Tom Landry 1924
Ray Guy 1949
Shane Lechler 1976
Doak Walker 1927
Sean Landeta 1962
Chris Kluwe 1981
Yale Lary 1930
Kordell Stewart 1972
Charley Trippi 1921
Russell Erxleben 1957
Reggie Roby 1961
Mat McBriar 1979
George Gipp 1895
Bob Waterfield 1920
Jim Bakken 1940
Jeff Feagles 1966
Gary Collins 1940
Tom Tupa 1966
Brad Maynard 1974
Jerrel Wilson 1941
items 1 - 25 of 349

#29 Rupert Patrick
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Posted 04 August 2014 - 06:03 PM
Teo, on 04 Aug 2014 - 3:27 PM, said:
Something I find impressive about Guy is that the punters that are selected to the Pro Bowl usually are for mediocre/bad teams, and the reason is that they tend to punt more and from deep their territory, which helms to a better average, while Guy, when he was chosen to the Pro Bowl was constantly on playoff-bound teams. I agree that is impossible to measure where in the gield each punt took place and I also think that Shane Lechler is superior than Guy, since most of his career was spent on bad teams and his average is impressive even for today, when punters have better avg. than in the 70s and 80s.

A few years back I studied the effects of punting in Denver, where I went thru all the Broncos game books and segregated all the punts between home games and road games for both teams. When I graphed the data, I found that when the line of scrimmage is 60 yards from the end zone you are kicking toward (your own 40-yard line) is the point where you start to sacrifice distance as you start moving closer to the end zone you are kicking towards. The punting average is pretty stable when you are between 61 and 99 yards from the end zone, but when you hit 60 yards, the punting average looks like a ski slope. The 60-yard rule is similar whether it be in Denver or on the road.

I think a detailed study of Lechler vs Guy would be interesting, as I think most if not all of Guy's punts are available in gamebooks, where you would measure for each punt the LOS ( the number of yards from the end zone you are punting towards), the number of yards the punt traveled, and whether it went for a touchback, and you might also want to record whether it was a coffin corner punt. Of course, Lechler would have a higher average, but when you look at percentage of touchbacks and coffin corners, whether Guy would have a higher percentage, and I think he would.

#30 Todd Pence
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Posted 04 August 2014 - 10:06 PM
JohnMaxymuk, on 03 Aug 2014 - 09:54 AM, said:
I mean this as a sincere question. I am not disputing that Guy was an excellent punter, but why was the "greatest punter of all time" only named a first time all pro three times in a 14 year career?

An even more pertinent question is why is the "greatest punter of all time" not even on the top fifty list of average yards per punt?
#31 Jeremy Crowhurst
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Posted 04 August 2014 - 10:15 PM
Todd Pence, on 04 Aug 2014 - 10:06 PM, said:
An even more pertinent question is why is the "greatest punter of all time" not even on the top fifty list of average yards per punt?

Ummm... because you can't kick a 60 yard punt from inside the opponent's 40, which is where Guy did a lot of his kicking, and the top 50 punters did very little of theirs - at least, very little that didn't end in a touchback.

#32 Jeremy Crowhurst
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Posted 04 August 2014 - 10:29 PM
So you have all these great punters who played on all these crappy teams... they couldn't draft QBs or RBs or LBs or DBs, but when it came to punters, they were gold. GOLD!!!

Don't you think that maybe there's something else at work here? On the weekend, one of the segments said Guy was the only punter in league history to lead the league in punting from a top 5 (or maybe 10) offense. Sounds pretty impressive to me....

#33 JohnMaxymuk
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Posted 04 August 2014 - 10:31 PM
Jeremy Crowhurst, on 04 Aug 2014 - 10:15 PM, said:
Ummm... because you can't kick a 60 yard punt from inside the opponent's 40, which is where Guy did a lot of his kicking, and the top 50 punters did very little of theirs - at least, very little that didn't end in a touchback.

I think this assertion needs to be backed up with a formal study as Rupert suggested. I don't know if the theory is right or wrong, but there are several other punters on the list who played primarily with winning teams (chandler, lary, roby, van brocklin...) so i don't think the statement can be made without more evidence.

#34 Bob Gill
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Posted 04 August 2014 - 11:02 PM
I don't buy the argument about Guy's average suffering because he played on such good teams. Just to take one obvious counter-example, Sammy Baugh only punted through about 1945 or '46, and the Redskins were championship contenders just about every year during that time. I can't believe they weren't among the top five offenses just about every year, too, if not the top three. And you'll note that Baugh led the league in punting several times (four, I think). Yale Lary punted for the Lions during an era when they were contenders, too, and he had some monster averages. Same thing for punting from the other team's 40; maybe Guy did it slightly more than a punter from a bad team would, but unless I see actual figures I can't believe that constituted any tremendous disadvantage for him. Good teams and bad alike do a lot of punting from their own 30 or whatever, because sometimes you go three-and-out, no matter who you are.

#35 Jeremy Crowhurst
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Posted 04 August 2014 - 11:58 PM
Todd Pence, on 04 Aug 2014 - 10:06 PM, said:
An even more pertinent question is why is the "greatest punter of all time" not even on the top fifty list of average yards per punt?

Attempt number two: for the same reason that Tony Romo is #5 all-time passer rating, and Sammy Baugh is #124; Tony is just that much better of a QB!

#36 oldecapecod 11
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Posted 05 August 2014 - 12:18 AM
I guess if I had one game to win, I'd hafta change from Johnny U and go with Tony. After all, JU is way down there too - tied at #72.

#37 Jeremy Crowhurst
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Posted 05 August 2014 - 12:26 AM
oldecapecod 11, on 05 Aug 2014 - 12:18 AM, said:
I guess if I had one game to win, I'd hafta change from Johnny U and go with Tony. After all, JU is way down there too - tied at #72.

Don't know how those guys ever got in the Hall.

Of course, it looks like Sammy could have made it in as a punter....

#38 oldecapecod 11
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Posted 05 August 2014 - 12:44 AM
... definitely as a DB. (Ask tj.)

#39 oldecapecod 11
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Posted 05 August 2014 - 12:59 AM
And for those who think the air in Florida is filled with sweet perfume, here's the link:

http://en.wikipedia...._rating_leaders

#40 JuggernautJ
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Posted 05 August 2014 - 01:51 AM
oldecapecod 11, on 05 Aug 2014 - 12:18 AM, said:
I guess if I had one game to win, I'd hafta change from Johnny U and go with Tony. After all, JU is way down there too - tied at #72.

Unless, of course, you needed the passer to play Quarterback and call his own plays.
In that instance I think you'd be better of with George Shaw than Tony Romo, despite any passer rating discrepancies.

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Re: After Ray Guy, next best punters?

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After Ray Guy, next best punters?
Started by Chrisskreager, Aug 03 2014 01:45 AM

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#41 Jeremy Crowhurst
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Posted 05 August 2014 - 04:09 AM
Bob Gill, on 04 Aug 2014 - 11:02 PM, said:
I don't buy the argument about Guy's average suffering because he played on such good teams. Just to take one obvious counter-example, Sammy Baugh only punted through about 1945 or '46, and the Redskins were championship contenders just about every year during that time. I can't believe they weren't among the top five offenses just about every year, too, if not the top three. And you'll note that Baugh led the league in punting several times (four, I think). Yale Lary punted for the Lions during an era when they were contenders, too, and he had some monster averages. Same thing for punting from the other team's 40; maybe Guy did it slightly more than a punter from a bad team would, but unless I see actual figures I can't believe that constituted any tremendous disadvantage for him. Good teams and bad alike do a lot of punting from their own 30 or whatever, because sometimes you go three-and-out, no matter who you are.

Actually, when Detroit was good, Lary was mediocre. When they stunk, he was a star. The three years he led the league their offenses were 11th (of 12), 11th (of 14), and 5th. The years Guy led the league his offences were 1st, 4th, and 1st, out of 26, 26, and 28, respectively.

#42 byron
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Posted 05 August 2014 - 11:27 AM
JuggernautJ, on 05 Aug 2014 - 01:51 AM, said:

Unless, of course, you needed the passer to play Quarterback and call his own plays.
In that instance I think you'd be better of with George Shaw than Tony Romo, despite any passer rating discrepancies.

While it's definitely a major tangent, I don't think modern QBs are unable to call plays. In fact, they often do so in the final minutes of a game when they need to move quickly.

#43 Bryan
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Posted 05 August 2014 - 12:16 PM
Jeremy Crowhurst, on 04 Aug 2014 - 10:15 PM, said:
Ummm... because you can't kick a 60 yard punt from inside the opponent's 40, which is where Guy did a lot of his kicking, and the top 50 punters did very little of theirs - at least, very little that didn't end in a touchback.

I would guess the opposite. If a punter plays on a good team, then the offense isn't going to stall around midfield every drive. They are going to at least get into FG range.

#44 fgoodwin
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Posted 05 August 2014 - 01:00 PM
Todd Pence, on 04 Aug 2014 - 10:06 PM, said:
An even more pertinent question is why is the "greatest punter of all time" not even on the top fifty list of average yards per punt?

If "avg. hang-time" were an official stat, how do you think Guy would rank using that metric?

#45 NWebster
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Posted 05 August 2014 - 01:28 PM
fgoodwin, on 05 Aug 2014 - 1:00 PM, said:
If "avg. hang-time" were an official stat, how do you think Guy would rank using that metric?

Pretty nicely, but maybe behind Tommy Davis and Reggie Roby.

As a somewhat seperate thought why are punters getting so much better in recent years. The Field Goal kicking improvements have many underlying root causes 1) Soccer style 40-50 years ago, 2) Changes in kick blocking rules 30-40 years ago, 3) Expanding rosters allowing for different Punters and mickers - ok lots had different punters and kickers, but Tommy Davis probably wouldn't have been the 49ers kicker as well had they had a larger roster, 4) Special team coaches focusing on timing of holders and snappers and kickers, 5) colleges, more recently, recruiting guys specifically as kickers - so you don't have to get a college soccer player turner kicker, you get a HS soccer player, turned college kicker, turned pro kicker.

But for Punting, technique seems similar, you don't have to coordinate the actions of as many people,, etc.

#46 oldecapecod 11
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Posted 05 August 2014 - 02:20 PM
NWebster
Posted Today, 01:28 PM
"... 4) Special team coaches focusing on timing of holders and snappers and kickers..."

Wow! That sure beats that nail right on the head. Amen!
I have an extended family member - a child who will be 14 in December and enters the 8th-Grade this fall. He is a pretty good RB, a ferocious tackler as a MLB or Nose, and a hard-working kid with a chance to finish his Junior High School career in a fiery blaze.
But... he has now been told to focus as a long-snapper. Why? 'Cause he is the only one on the team that can do it and the current HS team does not have one. In fact, the pressure has been so great that he is seriously considering giving up football and concentrating on wrestling where he has a shot at a state title.
So... because of some self-serving coach passing "the word" down, this boy might lose the opportunity to enjoy a football experience that will then be gone for his lifetime.
It is just an example that reinforces Mr. Webster's comment re specialized coaching that did not exist in the old days.

#47 Pat McDonald
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Posted 05 August 2014 - 04:58 PM
Bryan, on 05 Aug 2014 - 12:16 PM, said:

I would guess the opposite. If a punter plays on a good team, then the offense isn't going to stall around midfield every drive. They are going to at least get into FG range.

Guy's career started with Blanda and Mann as placekickers. Not a lot of deep range there. He also kicked off for them until Chris Bahr was signed.

#48 luckyshow
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Posted 05 August 2014 - 07:17 PM
I updated the Long Punts page (it is on two pages)

#49 luckyshow
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Posted 05 August 2014 - 08:28 PM
Dobbs was 49.1 yds per punt in 1948. (Baugh was 51.4 in 1940)

I have never found the individual punts for Dobbs.

#50 NWebster
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Posted 05 August 2014 - 08:34 PM
luckyshow, on 05 Aug 2014 - 8:28 PM, said:
Dobbs was 49.1 yds per punt in 1948. (Baugh was 51.4 in 1940)

I have never found the individual punts for Dobbs.

Sammy Baugh to me is still a Mt Rushmore QB (give Brady and Manning a few more years) but I do feel lime the gross punting average is inflated due to the quick-kick. A punter who sees no deep man can literally kick as FAR as he can without any concern for hang time. There was mention of Randall Cunningham, do we really think he'd be the greatest punter of all time with more attempts, or that he took advantage of no returned, I think (in his case) the latter, I think some of he same was qt play with Baugh. But, big but, Baugh should get credit for being such a multi-dimentionam threat that such a strategy worked. But I do tend to think he got more bounce yardage than Guy, Roby, etc.
#51 JohnMaxymuk
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Posted 05 August 2014 - 09:23 PM
NWebster, on 05 Aug 2014 - 8:34 PM, said:
Sammy Baugh to me is still a Mt Rushmore QB (give Brady and Manning a few more years) but I do feel lime the gross punting average is inflated due to the quick-kick. A punter who sees no deep man can literally kick as FAR as he can without any concern for hang time. There was mention of Randall Cunningham, do we really think he'd be the greatest punter of all time with more attempts, or that he took advantage of no returned, I think (in his case) the latter, I think some of he same was qt play with Baugh. But, big but, Baugh should get credit for being such a multi-dimentionam threat that such a strategy worked. But I do tend to think he got more bounce yardage than Guy, Roby, etc.

Quick kicks were a big factor, but i think that regular punt formation used to be less than a 15 yard dropback. Bob Gill or ralph could probably speak to that.

#52 oldecapecod 11
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Posted 05 August 2014 - 10:29 PM
JohnMaxymuk
Posted Today, 09:23 PM
"... Quick kicks were a big factor, but i think that regular punt formation used to be less than a 15 yard dropback..."

Right on! Regular Punt was about 10 yards; Short Punt seems about 5 or 6.

http://codeandfootba...-predate-the-t/

#53 John Turney
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Posted 06 August 2014 - 05:59 PM
fgoodwin, on 05 Aug 2014 - 1:00 PM, said:

If "avg. hang-time" were an official stat, how do you think Guy would rank using that metric?
No proof, of course, but "testimonials" of scouts said he often was at 5 seconds. 4.3 was considered "good". George Allen talked about this on when he did color in 1978 and 1979.

#54 Todd Pence
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Posted 06 August 2014 - 09:12 PM
A claim that is often repeated on Guy's online promotional HOF material is that Ray Guy never had a punt returned for a touchdown during his career. This even appears on ESPN's site. Actually, Guy had four such punts during his career. Not sure how not having a punt returned for a TD makes you a great punter anyhow.

#55 John Turney
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Posted 06 August 2014 - 09:56 PM
Todd Pence, on 06 Aug 2014 - 9:12 PM, said:
A claim that is often repeated on Guy's online promotional HOF material is that Ray Guy never had a punt returned for a touchdown during his career. This even appears on ESPN's site. Actually, Guy had four such punts during his career. Not sure how not having a punt returned for a TD makes you a great punter anyhow.
I think there is a threshold, but I don't know what it is, really, but there have been some punters with more, shall we call them "big negative plays" . Jerrell Wilson had a bunch blocked and had 5 returned for TDs. Harry Newsome had 14 blocked and 2 returned . . . I've seen some punts that looked like passes and the returner just catches in stride and gets a huge jump. I've seen other punts . . . that should have been downed and are returned for TDs.

I guess with returns for touchdowns, it relates to the yardage gained in the net yardage stat. So, the lower the yardage, the higher (longer hang time) gains yards and can flip the field.

Bill Parcells was mic'd once and talked about "hidden yardage" one guy didn't catch a punt and it bounced 20 yards. The returner screwed up, but got no penalty, except from his coaches yelling at him or getting cut.

I do wonder if there have been punters who have had a higher propensity to kick balls that are returned for TDs, but it's likely be correlated with guys who allow a lot of yards . . .Also, are there punters who drops more snaps than others, which is essentially the same as a blocked punt (unless he completes a pass) . . . .

Seems like a perfect season for a punter is no dropped snaps, none blocked or returned for a TD, and lead the NFL in net average . . .and to me, leading in net average by way of allowing few return yards, like 45 gross and 40 net as opposed to 50 gross and 10 net . . . meaning you hold your breath on every punt if he punts for your team.

#56 conace21
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Posted 07 August 2014 - 10:42 AM
Not having a punt returned for a TD is an indication that the punter never outkicked his coverage. Obviously, a high punt could still be returned with a coverage breakdown or a great individual effort.

Last night I watched the NFL Network special on Guy. Tom Flores talked about Guy leaping for the snap against Washington. OK fine, it prevented a disaster that would have given Washington momentum. But Flores also talked about how Guy never lost his rhythm and kicked the ball inside the Washington 20. He sure did...the play by play indicates he kicked it into the end zone for the only touchback of Guy's Super Bowl career. The worst part was the video cut off early. It showed the return man jogging towards the sideline, knowing he was not going to return the punt. The shot cut away before the punt landed. Did the network really have to embellish the point? Was it that tough to come up with highlights for Guy?

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When a player made a good play, he didn't jump up and down.
Those kinds of plays were expected."
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