Make a HOVG Case for any of these Players

Discuss candidates for the Pro Football Hall of Fame and the PFRA's Hall of Very Good

Re: Make a HOVG Case for any of these Players

Postby Bryan » Wed Nov 17, 2021 2:58 pm

Brian wolf wrote:What really hurts Marshall though was his years from 1972-79, where he just couldnt get the QB down as much though his teammates, Page and Eller were putting up better numbers themselves ...


Yeah, Marshall was good when the Vikings were bad, and he was mediocre when the Vikings were good.
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Re: Make a HOVG Case for any of these Players

Postby Bryan » Wed Nov 17, 2021 2:59 pm

JameisLoseston wrote:As for Herschel Walker, which I never addressed: that's pretty much a Pro Football Hall of Fame take, which you're free to share or not.


Not.
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Re: Make a HOVG Case for any of these Players

Postby Zero26 » Thu Nov 18, 2021 3:40 am

I think Marshall belongs in the HOF. If you're looking at it from sacks I see your point given his total is inflated by longevity. This shouldn't matter as he is 2nd in career defensive fumble recoveries with 30. He was the NFL leader for decades. Unlike sacks these are actually turnovers. In terms of interceptions there is no chance the career leader would be kept out and if Riley's 65 interceptions is enough to cancel out NEVER being elected to the pro bowl Marshalls 30 fumble recoveries(with 130+sacks) should be enough to cancel out making only 2 pro bowls. Honors is circular logic if the voters got it wrong and this should be the position where their decisions are most suspect.

I think there's more deserving defensive ends or that Foreman might be more deserving(he's one of the only Super Bowl era skill position players I think has been snubbed)among the 60s/70s Vikings but Marshalls case is great IMO.

Going back to the AFL issue I think the only skill player whose clearly deserving is Cookie Gilchrist(who was only 2nd team all decade and whom I hope Haynes and Lowe aren't ahead of in the minds of voters) as that position got no represenation and he was the best. Other than that I think the focus should be on the defense. In terms of Hennigan reason I'm on the fence is representation of that Oilers dynasty but that dynasty was in the weakest era of the AFL and given that his longevity really might not be enough. I can see the case for him though if people just take the stats at face value it's hard to say someones clearly a HOF'er or not when that opinion hinges almost entirely on the quality of the league rather than how well they performed.

I don't think Herschel Walker should be in the HOF discussion based on the NFL I think there's quite a few more deserving RB's for the HOVG tbh. Solid career stats but he only ran for 1000 twice and he was mainly a compiler with low career averages(for the purposes of the HOF in his era). However on the topic of inferior professional leagues counting if the USFL counts that would make it interesting. In 1985 he ran for 2400 yards which even with the 18 games is still 134 a game behind only OJ's season. He averaged 160 yards from scrimmage which might be the pro record(hard to check cause Profootballreference doesn't offer a leaderboard for yards from scrimmage a game). If his USFL stats counted they would put him near the top of most career stats. His NFL career alone clearly isn't enough though and the 4 other USFL alums got in based on NFL accomplishments.
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Re: Make a HOVG Case for any of these Players

Postby JeffreyMiller » Thu Nov 18, 2021 9:28 am

I like Gilxhrist but I think HOF is a stretch ... he really only had four outstanding seasons, and a couple could be argued came in the early years when the league was not considered to be on par with the National league.
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Re: Make a HOVG Case for any of these Players

Postby JameisLoseston » Thu Nov 18, 2021 4:06 pm

I also find it hard to see a case for Gilchrist. In order to get in with that short a career, he'd need to be Hennigan or Terrell Davis good. He wasn't.
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Re: Make a HOVG Case for any of these Players

Postby Brian wolf » Thu Nov 18, 2021 5:03 pm

I disagree about Gilchrist. With his canadian career, versatility and AFL Championship, is deserving of the HOF in my opinion. If Hornung can make the Hall due to his versatility, Cookie should as well with his kicking and linebacking ... Many people feel he was the greatest pass blocking RB as well, though I like Snell, Payton and Perkins too ...
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Re: Make a HOVG Case for any of these Players

Postby JeffreyMiller » Thu Nov 18, 2021 5:37 pm

JameisLoseston wrote:I also find it hard to see a case for Gilchrist. In order to get in with that short a career, he'd need to be Hennigan or Terrell Davis good. He wasn't.


Well, while I may agree with you on Gilchrist's worthiness, I disagree with your negative comparison to Hennigan. Gilchrist was a dominant figure on the field, and while he played best when he was pissed off or motivated in some other way, I don't think Hennigan had that same presence. A dominant receiver perhaps, but not the kind of guy who could carry a team on his back to victory. Whether the evidence is visual (I have tons of game film from Gilchrist's Buffalo years) or anecdotal (teammates or opponents), it all points to Gilchrist's side.
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Re: Make a HOVG Case for any of these Players

Postby Bryan » Fri Nov 19, 2021 1:31 pm

Zero26 wrote:However on the topic of inferior professional leagues counting if the USFL counts that would make it interesting. In 1985 he ran for 2400 yards which even with the 18 games is still 134 a game behind only OJ's season. He averaged 160 yards from scrimmage which might be the pro record(hard to check cause Profootballreference doesn't offer a leaderboard for yards from scrimmage a game). If his USFL stats counted they would put him near the top of most career stats. His NFL career alone clearly isn't enough though and the 4 other USFL alums got in based on NFL accomplishments.


My issue with Walker's USFL stats is that so many mediocre RBs put up big numbers in that league. For all the talk of the USFL signing QBs, it was really a league dominated by RBs. Kelvin Bryant might have even achieved more than Herschel Walker in the USFL, and his NFL career was mainly being a 3rd down receiving back for a couple years. So many of the 1000-yard USFL RBs were average NFL RBs either before or after their USFL days...Gary Anderson, Buford Jordan, Maurice Carthon, Bill Johnson, Kevin Long, Tim Spencer, I am sure there are others I am forgetting.

I remember the Packers at that time were always weak a RB, then when the USFL folded they acquired a RB named Paul Ott Carruth. Despite the headlines, he really wasn't any better than the current Packers RB crop.
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Re: Make a HOVG Case for any of these Players

Postby Brian wolf » Fri Nov 19, 2021 9:55 pm

Youre right Bryan but considering Walker averaged over 1700 scrimmage yrds per year his first three seasons in the NFL, there is easy reason to think his numbers would have been the same if not better had he played as a rookie onward. With possibly 10-11,000 yards rushing had he never entered the USFL, his case is more realistic.

The one thing I admire about Walker is his willingness to catch the ball or play special teams when he knew teams werent going to give him the ball more like he wanted. Despite a long career, he only had four seasons where he carried the ball more than 200 times. Other backs would have sulked, since power backs like him get stronger with more carries but Walker was a good teammate and never caused disruptions that would have threatened the team dynamic ...
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Re: Make a HOVG Case for any of these Players

Postby GameBeforeTheMoney » Sat Nov 27, 2021 12:21 pm

Bert Jones -- as Lydell Mitchell once said, just swap John Elway's jersey with Bert Jones' jersey and you have the same QB. They were similar in arm strength. Bert Jones might have had the strongest arm of the 70s before his shoulder injuries. Elway and Farve both kind of reminded me of Bert Jones.

You look at the Colts record for the three seasons before he was hurt and the two seasons of which he missed the majority -- it's clear what he meant to that team. In fact, Sports Illustrated said that the two players that determined their teams' success the most in the NFL were Earl Campbell and Bert Jones.
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