Make a HOVG Case for any of these Players

Discuss candidates for the Pro Football Hall of Fame and the PFRA's Hall of Very Good

Re: Make a HOVG Case for any of these Players

Postby Zero26 » Tue Nov 09, 2021 3:00 am

Brian wolf wrote:Hennigan definitely had an impact on Blanda and Willie Brown's career and Powell should be in the HOF in my view.
With both Otis and Lionel having cases as well.
Powell overshadowed HOF players Maynard and Biletnikoff on his own teams. Imagine had he not gotten hurt in 1967?
I still wonder how good George Sauer Jr's career would have been had he not retired after only six seasons ?


On the stat merits Powell deserves to be in but the HOF mainly rewards AFL players who had some success in the NFL(which in theory wipes away any asterisk they're holding against the AFL). Maynards stats took a huge dip in the NFL and he barely did anything in Super Bowl III but otherwise who else has made it off of just AFL statistcal brilliance? By this precedent Otis Taylor(who I think should be in) would be the only case that would be considered.

Sauer would have a good case with just 1 or 2 more good seasons though the way the 70s era receivers were handled makes it really hard to tell. I don't think his career was that short but if he passed any longevity threshold for this era the bigger issue would be his lack of touchdowns which really stands out among all these other WR candidates.

In any case I think these sort of players best chance will be in 2060 when there's some 100th year AFL celebration where you imagine the HOF is going to do something to commerate. I think it should be harder for AFL only players to be inducted into the HOF but it shouldn't be as close to a total ban as it is.
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Re: Make a HOVG Case for any of these Players

Postby JameisLoseston » Tue Nov 09, 2021 3:52 am

Alworth I believe is the only one who has gotten in on almost exclusively AFL production, and he's obviously on a higher level than Hennigan and Powell, but not by that much when you break it down. Powell was 80% of him with almost as long a run, and Hennigan was about 110% of him on a much shorter run. No one disputes Alworth's status as an inner-circle all-time great WR, so it's high time these guys get considered.
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Re: Make a HOVG Case for any of these Players

Postby JuggernautJ » Tue Nov 09, 2021 7:36 pm

JameisLoseston wrote:Alworth I believe is the only one who has gotten in on almost exclusively AFL production....


Billy Shaw, who played only in the AFL (G, Bills) is in the Hall of Fame.
You can win drinks with that trivia question! ;)
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Re: Make a HOVG Case for any of these Players

Postby Bryan » Wed Nov 10, 2021 10:11 am

JuggernautJ wrote:
JameisLoseston wrote:Alworth I believe is the only one who has gotten in on almost exclusively AFL production....


Billy Shaw, who played only in the AFL (G, Bills) is in the Hall of Fame.
You can win drinks with that trivia question! ;)


I'm not sure what is meant by "almost exclusively AFL production"...that list would be fairly large based on interpretation. Len Dawson & Joe Namath's HOF resume is dependent on their AFL accomplishments. Johnny Robinson, Don Maynard, Ron Mix. To a lesser extent Bobby Bell and George Blanda. Hank Stram & Sid Gillman.
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Re: Make a HOVG Case for any of these Players

Postby Zero26 » Wed Nov 10, 2021 10:52 am

Bryan wrote:
JuggernautJ wrote:
JameisLoseston wrote:Alworth I believe is the only one who has gotten in on almost exclusively AFL production....


Billy Shaw, who played only in the AFL (G, Bills) is in the Hall of Fame.
You can win drinks with that trivia question! ;)


I'm not sure what is meant by "almost exclusively AFL production"...that list would be fairly large based on interpretation. Len Dawson & Joe Namath's HOF resume is dependent on their AFL accomplishments. Johnny Robinson, Don Maynard, Ron Mix. To a lesser extent Bobby Bell and George Blanda. Hank Stram & Sid Gillman.


Super Bowl III and IV isn't NFL success but it's success against some of the best NFL teams ever and would serve the same purpose of wiping away an asterisk that NFL success would. Hence why Otis Taylor should be in regardless of anti AFL bias. If the premise is the AFL was inferior and it's best players couldn't have succeeded in the NFL just a little NFL success is crucial to a players chances.

I just looked up Alworth and was under the impression he had better numbers in Dallas than he did. But he was number 1 of the AFL WR's and also won a super bowl(I don't think this should matter much but it clearly does). In terms of Blanda he got in mainly as a kicker and while he was good enough as an AFL QB to have a case I think he'd be in the same boat as Kemp if he was being judged as a QB.
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Re: Make a HOVG Case for any of these Players

Postby JameisLoseston » Wed Nov 10, 2021 4:45 pm

I just looked up Alworth and was under the impression he had better numbers in Dallas than he did. But he was number 1 of the AFL WR's and also won a super bowl(I don't think this should matter much but it clearly does). In terms of Blanda he got in mainly as a kicker and while he was good enough as an AFL QB to have a case I think he'd be in the same boat as Kemp if he was being judged as a QB.


Interesting take on Blanda. My impression always was that he never would have been considered as either or, since he wasn't too far above average at either position, but the fact that he did both for so long made him a no-doubter. Sort of like if you had an inferior Shohei Ohtani who was a decent pitcher for 10 years and a decent hitter for 20 years... yeah, probably still a HOFer. But yeah, Jack Kemp is the HOVG's worst pick.

Alworth was the king of the AFL WRs, but not nearly by such a margin that he and Maynard (who played forever, unlike most of them) ought to be the only ones inducted.
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Re: Make a HOVG Case for any of these Players

Postby Bryan » Wed Nov 10, 2021 5:06 pm

JameisLoseston wrote:Alworth was the king of the AFL WRs, but not nearly by such a margin that he and Maynard (who played forever, unlike most of them) ought to be the only ones inducted.


I'm guessing its the timing of their production...they were great WRs during the peak competitive years of the AFL. The big numbers put up in the early AFL days by Lionel Taylor, Henningan & Powell don't carry as much weight as they were perceived as coming against lesser competition. Not sure if that is entirely fair, but it is the rationale.
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Re: Make a HOVG Case for any of these Players

Postby JameisLoseston » Thu Nov 11, 2021 4:05 pm

Bryan wrote:
JameisLoseston wrote:Alworth was the king of the AFL WRs, but not nearly by such a margin that he and Maynard (who played forever, unlike most of them) ought to be the only ones inducted.


I'm guessing its the timing of their production...they were great WRs during the peak competitive years of the AFL. The big numbers put up in the early AFL days by Lionel Taylor, Henningan & Powell don't carry as much weight as they were perceived as coming against lesser competition. Not sure if that is entirely fair, but it is the rationale.


Would have to solicit our resident AFL experts for their opinion on this matter.
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Re: Make a HOVG Case for any of these Players

Postby Zero26 » Fri Nov 12, 2021 12:43 am

JameisLoseston wrote:
I just looked up Alworth and was under the impression he had better numbers in Dallas than he did. But he was number 1 of the AFL WR's and also won a super bowl(I don't think this should matter much but it clearly does). In terms of Blanda he got in mainly as a kicker and while he was good enough as an AFL QB to have a case I think he'd be in the same boat as Kemp if he was being judged as a QB.


Interesting take on Blanda. My impression always was that he never would have been considered as either or, since he wasn't too far above average at either position, but the fact that he did both for so long made him a no-doubter. Sort of like if you had an inferior Shohei Ohtani who was a decent pitcher for 10 years and a decent hitter for 20 years... yeah, probably still a HOFer. But yeah, Jack Kemp is the HOVG's worst pick.

Alworth was the king of the AFL WRs, but not nearly by such a margin that he and Maynard (who played forever, unlike most of them) ought to be the only ones inducted.




In terms of kicking Blanda retired as the NFLs all time leader in both scoring and field goals made. In terms of accuracy you're right(he retired 33rd in that) but he had all the longevity records In terms of points scored and he retained this lead into the 21st century. Longevity inflated or not if he'd just played kicker he'd have been a shoe in for the HOF same as the holder of any major NFL record. I think the only all time scoring leader to not make the HOF is Gary Anderson and that's a special case because of the 98 Vikings. In terms of field goal leaders Lowery's also not in but he only briefly held the lead and generally that record gets a kicker into the HOF too. In terms of the scoring record in particular it's an offensive record not a kicking record. While the leaders today are exclusively kickers(today the top 100 has 90 kickers with Jerry Rice being the leading non kicker at 40) before Groza the top scorers were skill position players.

Groza and Blanda are often ommitted from lists of HOF kickers because they played other positions at such a high level but unlike in baseball where that makes someone a unicorn that was common during the earlier eras of the NFL. We can usually tell what side of the ball got them inducted. If Blanda's numbers and titles had been in the NFL he'd have probably made it but we know how the HOF views gaudy AFL stats.

Not sure if Kemp is the least worthy player in the HOVG even if I disagree I see the reasons people would vote for him(pro bowls, championships etc) but there's many players at every position who aren't in the HOVG who i think are more deserving for sure. Among HOVG AFL QB's I have Lamonica far ahead of him. He's in the conversation for worst HOVG for sure.

In terms of the receivers while I prefer Otis Taylor over the all decade picks I think Powell and Hennigan belong in the HOF if it's a yes or no question. Bigger problem for me is how many other HOF worthy WR's there are who didn't play their whole careers in the AFL. This seems to be the issue at most positions. While AFL only HOF candidates didn't get a fair trial by the HOF before they became seniors it'd also be hard to justify inducting most of them over other seniors. I think the AFL issue should be handled seperate.
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Re: Make a HOVG Case for any of these Players

Postby Jay Z » Fri Nov 12, 2021 5:28 pm

Art Powell was an NFL talent. Of course, he had been in the NFL in 1959 as a kick returner and backup defensive back. Got cut in 1960. Powell claimed it was for not playing in an exhibition game with segregated hotels. Powell didn't want to play defense anyway and the Eagles didn't have a spot for him at offensive end, so it was for the best. Instant and permanent star in the AFL.

Powell consistently wanted out of every situation, including Oakland, where they catered to him. Missed a SB trip in 1967 because of it, though he got hurt anyway.

Powell injury came warming up, so it was likely a wear and tear thing. Maybe why he pushed to get out of Oakland, to get a bit more pay before it was done. Powell was not a practice player and did not want to do rehab, no idea if he could have done more after 1967 if he put the work in.
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