NFL 100 All Time Team QB's

[JuggernautJ]

WILL make it (I think):
Baugh, Unitas, Graham, Montana, Brady, Manning

Likely (imho):
Staubach, Brees

That's eight. After that I think it's a matter of personal preference.
I like the old guys so I might vote for Luckman and Tarkenton (even though he's not a favorite he deserves the honor).
Any of Marino, Elway, Rodgers or Starr (or Namath, I guess) wouldn't surprise me.
It's be fun to see one of the "pure passers" (Van Brocklin, Jurgensen or Marino) represent.
I'd be disappointed to see Aikman, Bradshaw or Farve selected.
Young and Dawson probably don't have much of a chance but they are personal favorites.

[JohnH19]

My 10 QBs:

Baugh
Graham
Unitas
Montana
P. Manning
Brady
————-
Tarkenton
Favre
Staubach
Elway

Edit: I believe Fran is deserving but I don’t think he has a snowball’s chance of making it. I think my top six are locks and the other three have a very good chance. Brees and/or Marino have a very good shot at replacing Tarkenton and maybe one of the other guys in my lower tier. My one issue with Brees making it is that he is “only” the third or fourth best QB of his era.

[Rupert Patrick]

In 1991, it would be fair to say he was a BUST as the #1 pick in 83, yeah, I said it.

I don't think any pro football fan who watched Elway from 1983-91 felt he was a bust after leading the Broncos to three Super Bowls in four seasons. Granted in two of those Super Bowls, (Giants and 49ers), they were playing against teams who were much better than they were and they lost big, although they led the Giants 10-9 at halftime of Super Bowl XXI before the Giants put 24 unanswered points on the board to put the game away. The Broncos went into Super Bowl XXII favored by a couple points, although I felt Washington was the better team and would win the game, and they felt pretty good holding a 10-0 lead until Doug Williams put five touchdowns on the board before halftime.

Those three Super Bowls, I will point out, are two more Super Bowls than Dan Marino went to in his 17-year career. And Elway would go to two more Super Bowls, winning both of them. Elway didn't have Mark Clayton and Mark Duper to throw to (it would be about ten years into his career before Elway had a receiver at least as good as either of them), and it took Elway a couple years to develop into a consistent quarterback. Not all quarterbacks come into the league ready to go, some need a year or two to adapt to the pro game, some don't. Marino came into the NFL ready to take over the world. I saw Dan Marino play high school football in Pittsburgh in 1978 and thought he was good enough that he could probably make the jump from high school to the NFL where he would be a starter by the end of his rookie season in the NFL, he was that good, his arm was that strong, as a high school senior.

The Broncos also won a number of games they probably should have lost in those years because of Elway, such as the 1986 AFC Championship game in Cleveland (The Drive). One of the great forgotten two-minute drives in pro football history was during the 1991 AFC Divisional playoff game against Houston, where the Broncos started at their 2-yard line with 2:07 to play, trailing by a point. Elway twice converted on fourth down, first on a scramble and secondly on a pass to Vance Johnson for 44 yards, which set up David Treadwell's 28-yard field goal with 16 seconds to play as the Broncos won 26-24.

Statistics don't directly measure heart and will and determination and the ability to inspire one's teammates to pull a victory out of defeat; I wish they did. Elway had those qualities in spades.

[Retro Rider]

In 1991, it would be fair to say he was a BUST as the #1 pick in 83, yeah, I said it.

I don't think any pro football fan who watched Elway from 1983-91 felt he was a bust after leading the Broncos to three Super Bowls in four seasons. Granted in two of those Super Bowls, (Giants and 49ers), they were playing against teams who were much better than they were and they lost big, although they led the Giants 10-9 at halftime of Super Bowl XXI before the Giants put 24 unanswered points on the board to put the game away. The Broncos went into Super Bowl XXII favored by a couple points, although I felt Washington was the better team and would win the game, and they felt pretty good holding a 10-0 lead until Doug Williams put five touchdowns on the board before halftime.

Those three Super Bowls, I will point out, are two more Super Bowls than Dan Marino went to in his 17-year career. And Elway would go to two more Super Bowls, winning both of them. Elway didn't have Mark Clayton and Mark Duper to throw to (it would be about ten years into his career before Elway had a receiver at least as good as either of them), and it took Elway a couple years to develop into a consistent quarterback. Not all quarterbacks come into the league ready to go, some need a year or two to adapt to the pro game, some don't. Marino came into the NFL ready to take over the world. I saw Dan Marino play high school football in Pittsburgh in 1978 and thought he was good enough that he could probably make the jump from high school to the NFL where he would be a starter by the end of his rookie season in the NFL, he was that good, his arm was that strong, as a high school senior.

The Broncos also won a number of games they probably should have lost in those years because of Elway, such as the 1986 AFC Championship game in Cleveland (The Drive). One of the great forgotten two-minute drives in pro football history was during the 1991 AFC Divisional playoff game against Houston, where the Broncos started at their 2-yard line with 2:07 to play, trailing by a point. Elway twice converted on fourth down, first on a scramble and secondly on a pass to Vance Johnson for 44 yards, which set up David Treadwell's 28-yard field goal with 16 seconds to play as the Broncos won 26-24.

Statistics don't directly measure heart and will and determination and the ability to inspire one's teammates to pull a victory out of defeat; I wish they did. Elway had those qualities in spades.

Terrific post Rupert. Both Elway and Marino were tremendous quarterbacks but when considering their place in the Top 10 All Time I'd give the edge to Elway based on his 5 Super Bowl appearances and 14-7 post-season W/L record. Marino was 8-10 and never won the big one. Elway's 1988-1992 passing numbers were a reflection of Dan Reeves' more conservative game plans. No surprise that their relationship went sour.

An added note regarding passer ratings (from the NFL website):

"It is important to remember that the system is used to rate passers, not quarterbacks. Statistics do not reflect leadership, play-calling, and other intangible factors that go into making a successful professional quarterback."

http://www.nfl.com/help/quarterbackratingformula

[JameisLoseston]

Rupert, the way you put it, you seem to have no explanation for why Marino wouldn't be taken first overall. If he was so clearly more pro-ready and ready to dominate, then why would he be a late first rounder? NFL teams clearly didn't agree with you in 1983. Regardless, they got what they got, the Dolphins a QB ready to dominate and Denver one who took 10 years to find his groove. One of those two career arcs isn't inherently superior. But Marino's peak was so much higher than Elway's that it renders when they each occurred irrelevant. In total product they aren't thaaaaaat different; Marino is about 10,000 yards and 100 TDs ahead, but did not age gracefully at all, unlike Elway. That's the main criticism to be levied on him, that he couldn't sustain his dominance, but even later in his career he was competitive with Elway on leaderboards. The fact that he was already badly declined at that point says a lot about how great he truly was, and I think he had the greatest peak of any QB ever and one that will be hard to ever top.

With regard to Reeves and his conservatism, it's certainly a point but it still relies on hypotheticals to claim he was better than Marino, and I don't have a lot of sympathy for a QB who plays ultra-conservative but still turns the ball over, which Elway still did. I want my conservative QBs to be like, well, Good Bart Starr. A game-manager can be great, but he has to be amazing at what he does; it's why I don't take kindly to Aikman. Being conservative is a value detriment. A mediocre game-manager is an atrocious NFL QB, a very good game-manager is an average NFL QB, and a great game-manager is merely a good NFL QB (look no further than 2018-19 Rodgers). Conservative Elway was pretty much in the middle, fairly good but entirely average in the grander scheme. If this is what Dan Reeves brought to the game, though, I'm rooting heavily against him on the HOF ballot!

There are certainly aspects of playing QB that stats don't measure, and his weapons were undeniably worse than Marino's, although Duper and Clayton are no HOFers. But if we argue that Elway carried his teams on his back with those mediocre 80s numbers, what the heck does that say about, say, Tim Tebow, a QB John Elway himself very much disliked? The same arguments were made for him (*Skip Bayless has entered the chat*) that you're making for Elway here, and they were laughed at. Of course, Elway turned out a much better product in the end due to actually coming on later in his career, but before that, by arguing that he carried those 80s Denver teams you're basically claiming he had Tebow magic. Is that an actual resume point? You tell me.

I don't have a problem with the argument that Elway was overall great; I never said he wasn't, he retired 2nd or 3rd in passing, and while I stand by the Roethlisberger career arc comparison, I'm not saying Ben is as good as Elway or as deserving of HOF. He isn't. What I have a serious problem with is the claim that he was greater than Marino, who completely invalidated anyone else's claim to be the QB of the 80s (even Montana) in a way no one else has done for any other decade except Friedman for the 20s. It may well be that I simply have much more appreciation of Marino than most, and am sick of hearing him compared to the second-tier HOF QBs of his era like Elway, rather than having a lower opinion of Elway in particular.

For the record, I do not like to penalize QBs for playing on a lot of mediocre teams. Drew Brees is the best modern example, plenty of his Saints teams would be 2-14 without him and that's not his fault. Both he and Marino did everything they possibly could to win games, exactly how much WAR do you think one elite QB can possibly be worth? Winning is certainly a needle mover, but it's subordinate to individual dominance. Accordingly, I think in terms of overall career Montana and Marino are about tied, and before it's over, I think their modern analogues Brady, who looks close to done, and Brees, who could play another 5+ years, will retire with resumes of essentially equal merit. Brees could actually surpass 100,000 yards, and with Brady looking unlikely to go much past 80, they're shaping up to be the exact same dichotomy as Marino/Montana. Pundits will always elevate Brady higher even if Brees plays until he's 50, but could I bring myself to do so? No way. I wanted to put Brees on my list, but I know they won't pick 3 modern QBs and Manning and Brady are locks. He's my personal favorite of them though, and if he keeps playing this well for many years to come, he'll come away with GOATdom in the end.

[conace21]

Rupert, the way you put it, you seem to have no explanation for why Marino wouldn't be taken first overall. If he was so clearly more pro-ready and ready to dominate, then why would he be a late first rounder? NFL teams clearly didn't agree with you in 1983. Regardless, they got what they got, the Dolphins a QB ready to dominate and Denver one who took 10 years to find his groove. One of those two career arcs isn't inherently superior. But Marino's peak was so much higher than Elway's that it renders when they each occurred irrelevant. In total product they aren't thaaaaaat different; Marino is about 10,000 yards and 100 TDs ahead, but did not age gracefully at all, unlike Elway. That's the main criticism to be levied on him, that he couldn't sustain his dominance, but even later in his career he was competitive with Elway on leaderboards. The fact that he was already badly declined at that point says a lot about how great he truly was, and I think he had the greatest peak of any QB ever and one that will be hard to ever top.

With regard to Reeves and his conservatism, it's certainly a point but it still relies on hypotheticals to claim he was better than Marino, and I don't have a lot of sympathy for a QB who plays ultra-conservative but still turns the ball over, which Elway still did. I want my conservative QBs to be like, well, Good Bart Starr. A game-manager can be great, but he has to be amazing at what he does; it's why I don't take kindly to Aikman. Being conservative is a value detriment. A mediocre game-manager is an atrocious NFL QB, a very good game-manager is an average NFL QB, and a great game-manager is merely a good NFL QB (look no further than 2018-19 Rodgers). Conservative Elway was pretty much in the middle, fairly good but entirely average in the grander scheme. If this is what Dan Reeves brought to the game, though, I'm rooting heavily against him on the HOF ballot!

There are certainly aspects of playing QB that stats don't measure, and his weapons were undeniably worse than Marino's, although Duper and Clayton are no HOFers. But if we argue that Elway carried his teams on his back with those mediocre 80s numbers, what the heck does that say about, say, Tim Tebow, a QB John Elway himself very much disliked? The same arguments were made for him (*Skip Bayless has entered the chat*) that you're making for Elway here, and they were laughed at. Of course, Elway turned out a much better product in the end due to actually coming on later in his career, but before that, by arguing that he carried those 80s Denver teams you're basically claiming he had Tebow magic. Is that an actual resume point? You tell me.

I don't have a problem with the argument that Elway was overall great; I never said he wasn't, he retired 2nd or 3rd in passing, and while I stand by the Roethlisberger career arc comparison, I'm not saying Ben is as good as Elway or as deserving of HOF. He isn't. What I have a serious problem with is the claim that he was greater than Marino, who completely invalidated anyone else's claim to be the QB of the 80s (even Montana) in a way no one else has done for any other decade except Friedman for the 20s. It may well be that I simply have much more appreciation of Marino than most, and am sick of hearing him compared to the second-tier HOF QBs of his era like Elway, rather than having a lower opinion of Elway in particular.

For the record, I do not like to penalize QBs for playing on a lot of mediocre teams. Drew Brees is the best modern example, plenty of his Saints teams would be 2-14 without him and that's not his fault. Both he and Marino did everything they possibly could to win games, exactly how much WAR do you think one elite QB can possibly be worth? Winning is certainly a needle mover, but it's subordinate to individual dominance. Accordingly, I think in terms of overall career Montana and Marino are about tied, and before it's over, I think their modern analogues Brady, who looks close to done, and Brees, who could play another 5+ years, will retire with resumes of essentially equal merit. Brees could actually surpass 100,000 yards, and with Brady looking unlikely to go much past 80, they're shaping up to be the exact same dichotomy as Marino/Montana. Pundits will always elevate Brady higher even if Brees plays until he's 50, but could I bring myself to do so? No way. I wanted to put Brees on my list, but I know they won't pick 3 modern QBs and Manning and Brady are locks. He's my personal favorite of them though, and if he keeps playing this well for many years to come, he'll come away with GOATdom in the end.

It wasn't at all clear to NFL teams that Marino was ready to dominate. He had a mediocre senior season and there were rumors of drug use. But he clearly was. Elway was far from a game manager for Reeves. It was a conservative offense, but Elway on more than one occasion would improvise with his unmatched (at the time) scrambling ability and rocket arm. I recently watched the 1991 AFC Championship and saw him do that two or three times. He converted one with a throw than nobody else in the league could make.


And to go back to an earlier point, Aikman is very worthy of the HOF, though not the Top 100. He could throw accurately and deep. In his prime, 1991/92-1995, he rarely had to carry the Cowboys, but always turned it up a notch in the postseason.

[JuggernautJ]

....It may well be that I simply have much more appreciation of Marino than most....

You seem to put a lot of importance on statistics...
But there is more to playing QB than completion percentage and passer rating.

I would emphasize what Retro Rider said:

"It is important to remember that the system is used to rate passers, not quarterbacks. Statistics do not reflect leadership, play-calling, and other intangible factors that go into making a successful professional quarterback."

http://www.nfl.com/help/quarterbackratingformula

Could you consider it is possible that Marino was the better passer but Elway the better Quarterback?

[Oszuscik]

On Starr - He is renowned for his efficiency, high completion percentage and low turnovers, particularly the 3 INT season. But it was too erratic for my taste. There were plenty of years where his efficiency was below league average... like the year after the 3 INT season! And for as little as he threw even for his time, by God, I'd practically expect him to be ultra-efficient. We are not talking about Drew Brees here. If he actually gave himself a little workload, I'd expect that efficiency to crash and burn. For as much as this is lauded, his TD/INT is still barely above water. Only 1 All-Pro, which I don't typically like to cite but it is reflective of the resume here. I have nothing against him as a nominee but he has no business being anywhere near the top 10. Oh, but he won a lot of championships! Okay. He was like the 8th best player on his team. Jim Taylor, the best player on that offense, isn't getting in without a ticket.

I would argue the Packers were the model of consistency in the 1960's, and Bart Starr was an incredibly big part of that. I don't believe he was an erratic quarterback by any means. The season you mention, 1967, the year after his three interception MVP campaign, he suffered thumb and rib injuries in the preseason that greatly impacted his performance out of the gate in the regular season.

Lombardi's Packers were a team full of Hall of Famers, but they were made under him, not inherited. Though a good number of them were already on the team when Lombardi arrived, it was his coaching that elevated those players to level they had not come close to obtaining without him. Installing Bart Starr as his starting quarterback was ultimately what put that team of future Hall of Famers over the top. Before him Lombardi had given Lamar McHan (a higher-drafted, stronger-armed, more talented athlete) every chance to succeed. He couldn't get it done. Lombardi then turned to Starr, who immediately became an extension of his head coach on the field, helping to guide the team to six championship games in the span of eight years. If he truly was mediocre, couldn't anyone have quarterbacked that team to all those wins, like the supposedly more-talented McHan? Not to mention, the last three championships Lombardi's Packers won were after Taylor and Hornung were both past their prime or had left the team altogether. Those two were no longer the driving force of the team for those seasons like they had been in previous years, so Starr did not have that vaunted running game to lean on. They still won three championships.

Starr was always the first to admit he didn't have all the talent that other quarterbacks possessed, but the 1960's Packers are not a dynasty without him. Between Lombardi's unmatched skills in motivation, preparation, and training, and Starr's ability to execute, lead, and call plays on the field, that team was a finely-tuned engine that hummed for the majority of the decade. Starr did not ride the coattails of his talented teammates, and they certainly didn't win in spite of him.

While I would not put him in the Top 10, Bart Starr was anything but a mediocre quarterback.

[Retro Rider]

It was a tale of two careers for Elway, actually, one in which he was honestly kinda crap and another where he finally realized his potential. In the 80s, he was as average as average gets. There is nothing interesting to say about this guy when Marino was out dumping all over the league. In 1991, it would be fair to say he was a BUST as the #1 pick in 83, yeah, I said it. Then in 92 he went out and looked flat out done, cooked, finished at age 32. But miraculously, he bounced back and became a well above average QB for the last 6 years of his career, although he was still never any kind of dominant force, reflected in the zero, count em, career All-Pros.

Average as it gets? While Elway struggled for much of his rookie year, I never heard anyone call him a bust (lived in Colorado at the time). John Hadl, the Broncos quarterbacks coach that year, made a statement on NBC's NFL '83 (and I'm paraphrasing) that he had no doubt that Elway would develop in to an elite NFL quarterback. Elway showed marked improvement in 1984 & 1985, leading the Broncos to 13 and 11 wins respectively. After that he led Denver to 3 Super Bowls in the next 4 years. In 1987 he won the AP's NFL MVP award and was the consensus choice as AFC Player of the Year. He also earned 1st Team All Pro recognition in 1987 from NEA, The Sporting News and College & Pro Football Newsweekly (was 2nd team AP). Mostly what he did from 1984-1991 was win games (and 5 AFC West Titles). To me Marino looked light years ahead of Elway until the late in the 1985 season. While Marino garnered more career NFL 1st Team All Pro honors than Elway, they were fairly close in 1st Team All AFC honors with Marino earning six (1983-86, 1992, 1994) and Elway four (1987, 1993, 1996, 1997), as chosen by UPI, Pro Football Weekly and Football News. (Source: John Turney's Modern Years 1960-1998 All Pro Book)

A year after being named the NFL MVP, Dan Reeves became determined to make John Elway more of a pocket passer, like he had done with Roger Staubach. In 1988 Reeves brought in former Bronco QB Craig Morton to work with John. It turned out to be a bad experiment as Elway and the Broncos had only an average season. Denver fans blamed Morton for screwing up Elway, though according to Morton he had actually stopped coaching John after the final 1988 pre-season game (at the request of Reeves):

https://books.google.com/books?id=NvnJP ... 88&f=false

The tie breaker for me is Elway's performance in the post season. That's the true test of greatness. And like Unitas, Staubach, Stabler and Montana he was always cool under pressure.

[rewing84]

is it possible that van brocklin doesnt make the final cut