What is your personal "GOAT progression"?

SixtiesFan
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Re: What is your personal "GOAT progression"?

Post by SixtiesFan »

JameisLoseston wrote:Was that the stupidest trade in NFL history? Jim Ninowski had one of the worst starting tenures in history with the Lions. Meanwhile, Milt Plum was pretty fresh off a season with a PR of like 110.
Milt Plum criticized Paul Brown for not letting him call the plays. Brown traded Plum as fast as he could. The Browns also got DE Bill Glass in the multi-player deal.

In his 1979 memoir (which I haven't read in a long time) Paul Brown rapped Milt Plum so harshly you wondered why Brown allowed Plum to be his starting QB for several years. Brown indicated, in so many words, that Plum had proven to be inadequate, so maybe Ninowski would be the answer.
Last edited by SixtiesFan on Wed Nov 17, 2021 5:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Brian wolf
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Re: What is your personal "GOAT progression"?

Post by Brian wolf »

Meanwhile Len Dawson, rusty and without much confidence goes to the AFL after being released by Brown and gets his confidence and passing mechanics back while winning a championship ...
Brian wolf
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Re: What is your personal "GOAT progression"?

Post by Brian wolf »

In his book, Paul Brown dissed CB Bernie Parrish as well despite starting him from day one ... I have done threads/comments about all the good to great players Brown refused to sign or gave away ... A great though overrated coach IMO ...
racepug
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Re: What is your personal "GOAT progression"?

Post by racepug »

Bryan wrote:You could say the same thing about Tom Landry.
Yeah, I suppose I could. But for some reason I have more respect for Tom Landry than I ever did for Don Shula (even though I don't like either of those teams). Also, Landry won the one S.B. meeting between the two, and handily, so there's that.
Bob Gill
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Re: What is your personal "GOAT progression"?

Post by Bob Gill »

JameisLoseston wrote:Was that the stupidest trade in NFL history? Jim Ninowski had one of the worst starting tenures in history with the Lions.
And in both seasons the Lions had Morrall, who was at least twice as good, sitting on the bench while Ninowski played the bulk of the time. I've never understood that.
conace21
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Re: What is your personal "GOAT progression"?

Post by conace21 »

racepug wrote:
Bryan wrote:You could say the same thing about Tom Landry.
Yeah, I suppose I could. But for some reason I have more respect for Tom Landry than I ever did for Don Shula (even though I don't like either of those teams). Also, Landry won the one S.B. meeting between the two, and handily, so there's that.
Landry was much more of an innovator than Shula... or anybody else in the last 70 years. But he was also much more rigid and inflexible. He stayed with the flex defense even after the league became more pass heavy in the 1980's. This certainly contributed to the three straight losing seasons at the end of his tenure. Shula also received criticism at the end of his career, but he made the playoffs in three of his final four seasons, and it likely would have been four straight playoff berths if not for Marino's Achilles injury.
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74_75_78_79_
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Re: What is your personal "GOAT progression"?

Post by 74_75_78_79_ »

Shula, and Landry, IMO are in the top ten if, perhaps, just barely. And that's no shame at all. Others were simply even-better. Both, of course, are still pro football Legends and top-tier members of Canton; and for other reasons than just how they fared as head coaches. I forgot if I ever had an opinion of one being better than the other, but as of now in my mind they are both even. Similar-enough bodies-of-work when looking at their accolades and longevity (two World Championships apiece, for starters). Such a debate can go on forever.

If building a second 'Rushmore' of head coaches (#5-thru-8), Noll would be the first face to carve. As many Rings as Shula and Landry combined, and left not a single extra Lombardi on the table. Never lost a playoff game he was "supposed to" win other than SD in '82. Okay, let's also count the play-in game vs Cody Carlson in the '90 finale, But we all know he was finished by then as evidenced that following, final season of his. Walsh is next with his three (may as well say four - '89) Rings. He also only lost one playoff game he "should have" won - Minny in '87 thus, arguably at least, a Lombardi on the table as well. I'd carve Gibbs after that and then...I don't know, Parcells? Not as long a career as either Shula or Landry, and not as high an overall win %-age either, but to me it simply seems his career had more "bite" to it! And maybe he should be ahead of Gibbs being that he sure had his way with him head-to-head while with Giants (11-2 vs him not counting '83 & '87; 6-0 from '88-thru-'90)!

But, anyway, as for Shula not winning a Ring with Marino...nobody else would have either considering the rest of the team around him. Bringing Wood-Strock to a Super Bowl albeit...'82! Making another "no-name" defense that was significantly lesser than the one he had a decade earlier into one with a "Killer" nickname (and still forging them to #7 in '84 when they clearly fell off from the years leading up not to mention bringing they, and no run-game, to...another Super Bowl berth), '76 and '88 his ONLY losing seasons ever...yeah.
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RichardBak
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Re: What is your personal "GOAT progression"?

Post by RichardBak »

Bob Gill wrote:
JameisLoseston wrote:Was that the stupidest trade in NFL history? Jim Ninowski had one of the worst starting tenures in history with the Lions.
And in both seasons the Lions had Morrall, who was at least twice as good, sitting on the bench while Ninowski played the bulk of the time. I've never understood that.
It's interesting to compare Ninowski and Morrall. They were teammates at Mich State in 1954. Both were born and raised in Michigan and considered "hometown boys."

Ninowski was considered the Lions' bright hope when they got him in 1960 after Tobin Rote bolted for the CFL and Morrall (who came to Detroit 2 games into the '58 season as part of the Bobby Layne trade) hadn't lived up to expectations. One has to remember that, when the Lions acquired Ninowski, Morrall had already played for 3 teams---SF, Pitt & Detroit---and hadn't really made much of a splash. Ninowski was big, had a strong and accurate arm, was a good runner, and his teammates liked him. Moreover, he had an appealing backstory---the first Detroit kid (he starred at Pershing High) ever to QB the Lions....the MSU stud who had picked apart the Lions' famed secondary in the '58 College All-Star Game...a vocal basher of Paul Brown's messenger system (which is why he was traded). But Ninowski never really made it, becoming just one more journeyman QB who usually was rated a 2 or 3 (out of a possible 5) on my old APBA cards. The knock, from what I could gather, was that he always locked in on the primary receiver and was bad at finding the other guy. Forcing the ball resulted in a lot of interceptions.

George Wilson's carousel approach to QBs didn't help. He freely alternated Layne and Rote in his first season (1957) as HC and it worked well enough to deliver a title, so why change? At one point in the '61 season Wilson threatened to alternate his QBs between downs---that's how inconsistent both Morrall and Ninowski were as they basically split the starts that year and often wound up subbing for each other as the game progressed. The only season in the 8 that Wilson coached in Detroit where one QB started all the games was Plum in '62---but then the following year Wilson was back it, starting Plum one week and Morrall the next.

For some reason I never was a big fan of Morrall, though it's hard to argue against a guy who was part of three SB champs and the only 17-0 team in history. I've often wondered how SB III would've turned out if Unitas had relieved Morrall much earlier than he did. Or even started the game (though I admit Morrall deserved to start based on the season he had and the title-game wipeout of the Browns). All these years later, I still have visions of a wide-open Jimmy Orr frantically waving his arms, and Earl...oh, never mind.
Last edited by RichardBak on Wed Nov 17, 2021 10:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Brian wolf
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Re: What is your personal "GOAT progression"?

Post by Brian wolf »

When Dallas lost Danny White to injury in 1986 after a 6-2 start, the wheels basically came off. Landry and his aging coaching staff were already having problems with communicating and adapting to young players and a rebuilding mode just wasnt going to work out. The team had held on to too many veterans and didnt have any speed.
Brian wolf
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Re: What is your personal "GOAT progression"?

Post by Brian wolf »

I still believe if Orr had stopped at the ten yard line, with grass around him, Morrall would have spotted him in SB III but by going towards the goalline, Orr got lost in the colors of the Baltimore Marching Band, who were on that side of the endzone. He thought Hill was open but safety Hudson of the Jets has fallen down but got up quickly to intercept his pass ... A gloomy day for Colt fans and Unitas stayed mad at Shula ever since ...
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