Professional Football Researchers Association Forum
PFRA is a nonprofit organization dedicated to the history of professional football. Formed in 1979, PFRA members include many of the game's foremost historians and writers.
JohnTurney wrote:based on previous discussions----seems that these 4 are the ones----most agree with,
that 5th one is usually different, maybe if these 4 get in, that cleans up that era--meaning
if there were just 4 slots, this might be the best 4
Dilweg
Wistert
Ox Emerson
Lewellen
Not that they'd ever ask me, but I'd vote like all four of these guys. I might also vote for George Christiansen, as somebody else suggested.
Then again, I wouldn't want any of these consistent all-pros to take up slots that would otherwise go to assistant coaches, scouts and billionaire owners. After all, those are the ones who really deserve it.
The Canadian leagues were paying large salaries to NFL players and an elite player like Barwegan likely got a hefty raise by going North, a big deal in those days of $5,000 per year salaries. So I very much doubt it was a matter of Ewbank giving up on him.
Barwegan was a consensus second team all-pro and a starter in the Pro Bowl in his last year with Chicago, then started in the Pro Bowl and was named first team all-pro by Football Digest the first year after the trade so he certainly was still an elite player in 1953 and it's doubtful Halas gave up on him, either. Halas fleeced the old Colts when he traded to get Barwegan in 1950; maybe he got a good haul when he traded him to the new Colts.
Yeah, it's possible the fact that Groza, McCormack and Hickerson -- all of whom overlapped with Smith and are in the HOF -- has hurt Smith's chances. That would be a shame because Smith was a better lineman than all three, not to mention other contemporary Hall of Fame linemen like Stanfel and Kramer (though Groza was a better player because of his phenomenal kicking skills). They're happy to elect a never-ending stream of Raiders from the 1970s -- we're up to 13 and counting, plus the owner, head coach and Ron Wolf -- and then get picky when it comes to other teams. I remember thinking when Hickerson got elected that that would probably kill Smith's chances.
It's possible Rymkus was hurt by teammates Groza and Gatski being in the HOF. The thing I think is nuts is that the HOF has this strict line of demarcation between what someone did as a player and what they did as a coach and they only consider one or the other. Rymkus is probably just borderline as a player but winning a championship in his only full season as a head coach seems like it should put him over and it's crazy that they refuse to add together everything somebody did in football. And it was the first AFL championship to boot. Sure seems like they overlooked that rule when they elected LeBeau and Emmitt Thomas (and maybe Stanfel as well).
Brian wolf wrote:Its still hard to believe George Halas and Weeb Ewbank gave up on Barwegan. If he was so good did they do it for his own business interests or just wanted draft capital ? He was considered great in the AAFC as well.
Does Jim Ray Smith get downgraded because of other HOF players on the Browns ? Didnt that happen to Lou Rymkus as well ?
How good was Al Nesser and Dick Huffman ?
I have Bargwegan high on my list, but not top tier. I also like Rymkus and Smith.
Nesser was good, but I would not put him in the HOF. He is HOVG. He was the best Nesser that spent any appreciable time in the NFL, but there were better Nessers pre-NFL.
Brian mentioned Dick Huffman. He was an outstanding player in a short, four-year NFL career and then played seven years in Canada at a high enough level that he in the Canadian Football HOF. Seems like a complex case and it would be interesting to see how it gets handled.
One important piece of Barwegan's story that I definitely hope gets serious consideration is the delay to his career because of military service (he was 25 years and 9 months old when he played his first pro game). I used to bring this up regarding Speedie before he got in, as he was 26 years and 7 months old before he played his first pro game. It certainly seems the HOF factored in time lost to military service during and immediately after World War II for some players whose careers were interrupted, George McAfee and Ace Parker being two. I sure hope they would do the same for Barwegan, who lost more time to the military and whose HOF resume is better -- often significantly better -- than pretty much all those guys (not to mention a whole lot of other Hall of Famers).
I think military service in World War 2 goes into a special category than the other things that can delay or interrupt (not to mention end) a player's career.
Andy Piascik wrote:Brian mentioned Dick Huffman. He was an outstanding player in a short, four-year NFL career and then played seven years in Canada at a high enough level that he in the Canadian Football HOF. Seems like a complex case and it would be interesting to see how it gets handled.
Huffman didn't really stand out to me in film study. The Rams had gotten run over on defense for the second half of the 1949 season. The two big changes in 1950 was acquiring Bob Reinhard from the AAFC to shore up one of the DL spots and using Tank Younger almost exclusively as an OLB. Both of those guys were rock-solid on defense. The OL standout on film was Harry Thompson. Maybe Huffman was more dominant earlier in his career, but by 1949 and 1950 I thought some of his teammates were better. JMO, though. I did hear Mark Schlereth say that whenever he broke the huddle against the Rams, you had to know where Huffman was lining up.
The ESPN Pro Football Encyclopedia has an interesting and very useful method for rating players. They picked up on something Bob Carroll did in The Hidden Game of Football by awarding points to a player in each season that he was picked first team all-pro, second team all-pro, first team all-conference, second team all-conference, Pro Bowl, NFL All-Star Game and whether the first team selection was consensus. Like Bob, they awarded a descending number of points, with consensus first team all-pro being the highest. There were numerous problems with Bob's including errors in addition, omissions of players who had high scores, incorrectly mixing up all-conference and all-pro, missing occasions altogether when someone was all-pro and others that the ESPN authors (some of whom are PFRA members) seem to have corrected. Here is how they rate the players who have been mentioned here thus far:
The vast majority of those with scores of 40 or higher are in the HOF. A score of 50 is almost a sure thing for the HOF except in rare cases like the three at the top of the first list above. The only old-timer I noticed who comes in with a high score who hasn't been mentioned here is Bruno Banducci (46). There very likely are other old-timers who score higher than Lewellen's 35 and probably many others who score higher than the Benton-Christensen range of 22-29.
Like Barwegan, Gene Brito and Jim Ray Smith also began their pro careers at advanced ages because of military service. Brito was well past the age of 25 when he played his first NFL game. Base on conversations I've had with Smith, he went straight from being discharged to the Browns in November 1956 and actually played in some games that year without having attended training camp. At that point, he was 24 years and 9 months old. Cutting him some slack, his first real season in the NFL with the benefit of full preparation was 1957. On opening day of 1957, he was 25 years and 7 months old.
The careers of both also ended prematurely, Brito's because of the disease that tragically took his life and Smith's because of two devastating knee injuries (one in 1963 and one in 1964).
People sometimes talk about a Gale Sayers Factor or something where they apparently claim that Sayers got into the HOF because he would have been one of the greatest RBs ever if not for the devastating knee injuries he suffered. I think that's a bunch of bunk. Sayers got in because he WAS one of the greatest RBs ever. He was a unanimous first team all-pro five times (consecutively) and there aren't many players at any position who did that. That's why he's in the HOF.
If there's any such thing, it's really the Terrell Davis Factor. I view Davis as a borderline Hall of Famer who came in a little below the border. I wouldn't have voted for him but I don't disagree that he would have gone over the border if not for the injuries.
So Brito and Smith are very interesting cases who, with close examination, should be in the HOF. First and foremost, that's because of how great they played across multiple seasons. In both their cases, you have the two additional factors of their careers being severely impacted at both the front and the back. The injuries are less of a factor -- I don't, for example, believe Billy Sims should be in the HOF -- but the fact that you have both of these things involved with two such great players makes it a slam dunk for me. And the whole military thing (along, of course, with what a phenomenal player he was) is why I put Barwegan
at the very top of my list ahead even of Wistert and Dilweg.
If it's not too late, I'd like to drop Riley Matheson and change my vote to the following:
Once the HOF goes back to two seniors per year again, I hope they have the courage to put in Dilweg and Lewellen together. These guys have canceled each other for way too long. Dilweg has the accolades and Lewellen was the first to officially have 50 career TDs, not to mention playing defense and great punting. We can debate Bryant Young all day but there shouldnt be any debate on these two great Packers ...
