Abrupt Career Endings (non-injury)
#1 evan
Posted 21 May 2010 - 11:51 AM
Was wondering what exactly happened to a few guys who appeared to have non-injury related, non-legal related, very abrupt career endings. Also feel free to throw in some other examples of this bizarre phenomenon:
Steve Ramsey, QB - After being traded to the Giants in March 1977 for Craig Morton, the 28-year-old Ramsey never played for the Giants or any other team. What happened?
Reggie Langhorne, WR - After catching 85 passes (I think leading the AFC) for 1,038 yards for the Colts in 1993, the 30-year-old Langhorne never played again. What happened?
David Ray, K - In 1973, Ray led the NFL with 30 FG and scored 130 points, the third time in four years he cleared 100 points. In 1974 he had a not-so-great year but nothing abominable. And that was it. At 30 years old he never played again. What happened?
#2 Gabe
Posted 21 May 2010 - 12:08 PM
David Ray was released by the Rams after they signed Tom Dempsey as a free agent. Ray was one of those place-kickers, Bruce Gosset was another, whose numbers went down dramatically when the goalposts were moved to the back of the end zone in 1974.
My favorite case of a sudden non-injury related retirement was All-Pro DT Mike Reid's retirement in 1974 after his 4th year in the NFL to pursue a musical career.
#3 Mark L. Ford
Posted 21 May 2010 - 12:18 PM
And a tragic example, of course, is Pat Tillman, who quit pro football to join the U.S. Army Rangers.
#4 evan
Posted 21 May 2010 - 12:39 PM
I had no idea some kickers were so adversely affected by the 1974 goal post change. Interesting.
This might have been an injury, but anyone know what happened to WR Otto Stowe? He caught 6 TDs for Dallas in the first 7 games of 1973, then barely played again, done at 25 years old.
#5 BD Sullivan
Posted 21 May 2010 - 12:49 PM
Stowe retired on 8/18/75 as a member of the Rams, saying he had lost his enthusiasm for the game. That was probably because he was never able to recover from a broken ankle suffered against the Eagles on 10/28/73. At the time, he was the Cowboys' leading receiver. In 1974, he played eight games with the Broncos, but only had a pair of receptions.
Regarding Reggie Langhorne, he was released by the Colts in February 1994 in what was directly termed, "a cost-cutting move." That off-season was the first where NFL teams had to deal with the salary cap, so Langhorne might have been seen as too expensive a proposition for other teams (having averaged 75 catches for the previous two seasons.) These other two reasons might not be viable, but I'll throw them out there anyway: he had just turned 30, and during that offseason, he had pled guilty to a DWI and leaving the scene of an accident. He ended up getting probation, but teams may not have wanted to deal with the baggage.
Steve Ramsey was cut during training camp by the Giants in '77, and given the overall weakness of that position with the Giants, other teams presumably figured if he couldn't make that team, he was done.
Finally, Mike Reid stated that as a pianist, he was afraid that the obviously violent nature of playing on the line was putting his future career at risk, so rather than risk losing potential income for the last 40+ years of his life, he'd end his first career abruptly.
#6 evan
Posted 21 May 2010 - 02:03 PM
Great info, thanks BD! Hard to believe no one could salvage some of these guys. Stowe looked like he was coming into his own in 1973, but I guess as you said if the ankle was really bad, that might have been it. The kickers continue to baffle me, especially David Ray, since with expansion there were some really bad kickers around the league in the late 1970s, hard to believe no one tried to get Ray back in the game.
The Ramsey story is strange too, considering as you said the Giants QBs were as bad as it got going into 1977. Pisarcik was a nondescript WFL refugee if I recall, and Golsteyn was a 12th-rd draft pick in a really weak year for QBs. How the Giants figured they couldn't use an experienced (although admittedly average) NFL quarterback like Ramsey seemingly in the prime of his career instead of one of the two completely unproven neophytes is a mystery to me. I think there had to be something bizarre there if no other team in the league even gave Ramsey a tryout.
And speaking of bizarre, I wonder if anyone can officially notate the number of comeback attempts Duane Thomas was involved in after 1974. I read in Pro Football Weekly that Thomas was expected to be Dallas's No. 1 running back through the first several pre-season games of 1976, but was unexpectedly cut before the 1976 season began, and obviously not picked up by anyone. Then I believe it was Green Bay who inquired about him in 1978 was it? Anyone remember that?
We all know Thomas's backstory and his incredible talent. I enjoyed his interviews in the America's Game series, seems like an interesting guy, definitely someone with a lot going for him, too bad that so much of what he said and did was interpreted negatively, because what a career he could have had. Wonder how history could have changed if he was on the Raiders his whole career. They probably wouldn't have cared so much about all his attitude "issues" and imagine what his talent could have done behind that offensive line? Nothing against Banaszak, Smith and the Colgate backs (Hubbard and Van eeghen), but Thomas had a different level of talent altogether.
#7 fgoodwin
Posted 21 May 2010 - 02:08 PM
Both Jim Brown & Barry Sanders retired at the top of their game.
#8 BD Sullivan
Thomas was cut by the Redskins in August 1975, a few months after demanding a new contract, and almost immediately signed with the Hawaiians (replacing an injured Calvin Hill) of the WFL. He ran for 92 yards on 34 carries before hurting his leg in late September. Two weeks later, he was released--just weeks before the league collapsed.
In May of '76, he re-signed with the Cowboys, but was cut after the final exhibition game--along with former Giant RB Ron Johnson.
After doing community work for the city of Dallas (and filing for bankruptcy), he tried the CFL with British Columbia in June of '77, but left camp just over a week later. There was talk of the Giants, Chargers and Redskins being interested in '78, but nothing ever materialized.
Thomas' stint with GB was typically bizarre: he got what was supposed to be a secret tryout with the Packers in October 1978, but the Packer beat writers sniffed it out and printed the information, despite the Packers' pleading not to do so. Starr exploded when they did it, since it might have violated the NFL's "stashing" rule. However, Pete Rozelle exonerated him. The Packers ended up signing him the following March, but he was cut before the final exhibition game.
That appears to be his last chance, although he did return to the Cowboys training camp in '87 as a "journalist" who was supposedly writing a book on the Cowboys with Dr. Z, Paul Zimmerman.
#9 BD Sullivan
Posted 21 May 2010 - 02:59 PM
Ray was signed by the Eagles in May of '76, but he lost out to Horst Muhlmann and was cut on 8/24.
Another addition to this list would be Jets WR George Sauer, who retired prior to the 1971 season, saying that football was "dehumanizing." While his production had slipped (141 catches in 1967-68; 76 over the next two seasons), he had been injured in '70 and the Jets had been without Namath for the last half of the 1970 campaign. Plus he was only 27 when he made the announcement.
Interestingly, Sauer retired just after meeting with Jack Scott, who was seen as something of a guru for anti-establishment athletes (i.e. Dave Meggyesy)--and had a controversial connection to Bill Walton during the latter's first few seasons in the NBA.
Obviously, Sauer's feelings abated somewhat, since he made a comeback in the WFL in '74. He first signed with what was supposed to be a Boston franchise, but eventually played for the New York Stars, who soon became the Charlotte Hornets. By 1979, he was a coach in the "American Football Association," but also wrote book reviews for the Washington Post.
#10 ronfitch
Posted 21 May 2010 - 03:23 PM
Reid would go on to write a song which won a Grammy, write a number of top ten country songs, be awarded the ASCAP Country Music Song Writer of the Year award in '85 and be inducted into the Nashville Songwriters Hall of Fame in '05.
#11 Teo
Posted 21 May 2010 - 03:37 PM
I am amazed that nobody mentioned Tommy Casanova, a safety who played from 1972-1977 for the Bengals; he went to the Pro Bowl three times (incluiding in his last two seasons) and was an All-Pro in 1976. He retired at the age of 28 to pursue a career in medicine. Other example is TE John Frank (49ers 1984-1988) who also became a doctor.
#12 JWL
Posted 21 May 2010 - 04:00 PM
Robert Smith and Tiki Barber are two other backs who retired after great seasons.
#13 SixtiesFan
Posted 21 May 2010 - 04:30 PM
I recall seeing a 1976 Cowboy preseason game on TV. Thomas was given several carries, but didn't have it anymore. Ironically, the Cowboys were weak at RB in 1976. Before the 1977 draft, they made the deal for Tony Dorsett.
#14 Reaser
Posted 21 May 2010 - 04:33 PM
Napoleon Kaufman played from 1995-2000 then retired to become a Christian minister.
#15 Rupert Patrick
Posted 21 May 2010 - 05:27 PM
evan, on 21 May 2010 - 01:39 PM, said:
I don't believe the 1974 goal post change made much of a difference for Field Goals, other than the strategies where one would kick a FG in 1974 were moved ten yards in than where they were in 1973. The Field Goal success rate did drop from 63.1 percent to 60.6 percent, but in 1975 the rate was higher (64.2 percent) than 1973. The Extra Point success rate did drop like a stone (from 96.8 percent in 1973 to 90.5 in 1974) and it took 15 years for the league XP rate to get above the 1973 total.
Bruce Gossett was coming off a 1973 season which according to my analysis he was probably the most productive kicker in the NFL, kicking 26 of 33 FG's and 104 points. In 1974 he was 2-11 from over 40 yards, and I had him rated as probably the worst kicker in the NFL. It's possible that after eleven seasons his leg gave out on him, or he had an injury that was never publicized; back then there wasn't the amount of knowledge about players that was available that we have today. I don't think the goals posts moving affected Gossett's kicking.
One odd case that always interested me was Tom Miner, who was a 26 year old rookie Kicker for the 1958 Steelers who tied for the league lead in Field Goals, but never played in the NFL again.
Another interesting case is Tim Mazzetti, who was the Bartender turned Kicker for the 1978-80 Atlanta Falcons. He was 24 in 1980, and was coming off a fine season where he was 19-27 in FG's and his 103 points were second in the NFC among Kickers, but he never kicked in the NFL again.
I think these kinds of cases of abrupt career endings are probably most common among Kickers, because unlike other positions there are a very limited number of Kicking jobs in the NFL. There is also a limited number of punting positions in the NFL, but Punters I believe tend to have longer careers than Kickers, and if the Kicker misses the key Field Goal he is the scapegoat. How often is the Punter the scapegoat?
Another thing I have noticed is that if you look at virtually every Kicker of note in Pro Football history, his final season he is average or most likely below average according to my rating methodology. Few kickers retire one year too early, most are released one year too late. Morten Anderson retired after a very good 2007 season where he was 25-28 in FG's, but he was 2-5 of FG's over 40 yards and didn't have the range he was famous for; he was about the only exception I could find to the rule.
There are numerous cases where Kickers never recover from a missed FG; the two classic examples are Scott Norwood in Super Bowl 25 (although in his defense a 47 yard FG was basically a 50-50 proposition, and he was wide right by a yard or so) and Mike Vanderjagt in the 2005 playoff game against Pittsburgh, where he clearly shanked the kick.
#16 Rupert Patrick
Posted 21 May 2010 - 05:35 PM
Robert Smith is today a noted Astronomer. I sometimes see him interviewed on science shows.
I think if Tiki Barber had played one more season he probably would be a serious HOF candidate. The fact that he walked away from the Giants after the 2006 season and the following season they won the Super Bowl without him will not help his case in Canton.
#17 BD Sullivan
Mazzetti was beaten out by Mick Luckhurst at the end of the 1981 training camp. Leeman Bennett said they were basically even, but that Luckhurst was getting better distance on kickoffs. It probably didn't help Mazzetti's cause that he missed both an extra point and 25-yard (another article said 30) field goal in an exhibition game against the Raiders, costly misses that gave Oakland a 17-16 win.
#18 Rupert Patrick
But you would think that Mazzetti would have caught on with another team, as there were a number of teams in 1981 with Kicking problems, such as Denver, Baltimore, Cleveland, New Orleans, and Chicago to name a few.
#19 BD Sullivan
He did resurface in the USFL, playing all three seasons for the Breakers, who were in Boston in year one, New Orleans in season two and Portland in the final USFL season.
#20 97Den98
Bobby Humphrey, Denver's 1989 rookie sensation, didn't play again after spending the 1992 season with the Miami Dolphins. I think that it had to do with drugs, but I am not sure.
Also, the guy that the Broncos acquired in the trade with Miami, RB Sammie Smith, never really played again after the 1992 season.
coach tj troup
Posted 22 May 2010 - 07:46 AM
...was honored by paul lionel zimmerman to do research(my first paid foray)on the book duane thomas and the rise and fall of the dallas cowboys. a few years ago was able to meet duane and marlin briscoe at my school during "read across america". question, after question, and became a long, long lunch. both these intelligent men had story, after story about the men, coaches, strategy of their era. my final question to duane....would you change anything with your career. when he finished laughing, he spoke in detail of how young men make foolish decisions not realizing the long term effect.
#22 JWL
Posted 22 May 2010 - 07:48 AM
I think Denver cut Sammie Smith when his fumbling problem continued.
In 1996, Smith was sentenced to seven years and three months in federal prison for cocaine trafficking.
#23 Rupert Patrick
Posted 22 May 2010 - 07:59 AM
Barry Foster had a huge year for the Steelers in 1992, gaining 1.690 yards, which I believe is a Steelers single season record. He never played again after the 1994 season and was out of football at the age of 26, and I seem to remember he said he had made enough money to retire and was going to retire, which he did.
Ricky Williams was a controversial case of a guy who tried to cash out early when he wanted to be the next Bob Marley only without the singing talent, but he didn't understand that not all that money was guaranteed to him and he was pretty much forced to come back to Pro Football. Had he steered clear of the weed he would probably be in the midst of a serious run at Emmitt Smith's career rushing record today. He did make a huge comeback in 2009, but his departure after the 2003 season destroyed the Dolphins and it took the franchise 5 years to recover.
#24 JWL
Posted 22 May 2010 - 08:13 AM
nevermind what I previously wrote (if anyone saw it)
Wikipedia either had wrong information or I misremembered something. Either way, Foster had signed with the Bengals at one point only to retire days later.
#25 BD Sullivan
Posted 22 May 2010 - 10:57 AM
Rupert Patrick, on 22 May 2010 - 08:59 AM, said:
Ricky Williams was handicapped from the start when he let an financially illiterate rap star (Master P) negotiate his first contract, which turned into a great deal...for the Saints. Here's a link to an explanation of how bad the contract was:
http://sportsillustr...kirwan_insider/
#26 Reaser
Posted 22 May 2010 - 11:21 AM
Foster was traded from the Steelers to the Panthers, then Carolina cut him. Then the signing with the Bengals and retirement.
Ickey Woods is another short career.
#27 conace21
Scott Norwood actually played in 1991, but he had a pretty lousy year, namely a game against the Raiders where he missed an XP and three FG's. He did kick the game winner in overtime.
Ricky Williams didn't retire from the NFL to smoke marijuana. He retired because he carried the ball 700 times in two years and he pretty much got the hell beat out of him. Financial considerations did likely play a part in his return to the NFL.
#28 97Den98
Posted 22 May 2010 - 03:40 PM
You are right about Denver and their kicking woes. Steinfort really sucked that year. I don't know what happened to him. They had to bring in Chris & Matt Bahr's dad from Penn State(who was the soccer coach, I think) to try to help him. It is amazing that he lasted the whole year. The next year, the Broncos got Karlis, and Steinfort didn't kick again.
#29 BD Sullivan
Posted 22 May 2010 - 04:33 PM
Steinfort was a holdout for the first half of the 1981 preseason (he didn't sign until August 18), so perhaps his timing was all screwed up. Unfortunately, one of the few clutch kicks he had that year helped beat the Browns, who were in their own collapse from the year before.
#30 BD Sullivan
conace21, on 22 May 2010 - 04:21 PM, said:
Ricky Williams also was influenced when he was back at Texas for an event honoring Earl Campbell, who was hobbling around and had major trouble straightening his back or knees.
#31 NWebster
Posted 22 May 2010 - 05:34 PM
I've always been interested in Warren Wells. He may have been one of the least lucky players in history both being selected to serve in Vietnam - one of only a handful of NFL players to do so and then having his career cut short after legal issues following a 900 yard 11TD 14 game season under the age of 30.
#32 JWL
Posted 22 May 2010 - 06:40 PM
Ickey ' career was short due to injuries. He was never really able to recover after getting injured early in his second season.
For whatever reason, I have no recollection of Foster being dealt to Carolina.
What happened to these fellows?
Bobby Johnson- this WR started 43 games with the Giants from 1984-86 and played in Super Bowl 21; he was traded to San Diego in August of 1987, but never again played in an NFL game that counted (perhaps he did appear in some '87 preseason tilts)
Johnny Johnson- he ran for 4078 yards from 1990-94, but never played again after his age 26 season; I think a couple teams considered signing him in subsequent years, but he never made it back to an NFL game
Derrick Moore- he gained 405 yards on the ground as Barry Sanders' backup in 1993; after playing with the Lions again in 1994, he led the expansion Panthers in rushing; he then vanished- I have no clue what happened to him (it seems circa 1994-95 I was simply watching games and not paying attention to transactions or retirements)
#33 97Den98
Posted 22 May 2010 - 07:45 PM
I remember Johnny Johnson going to camp with the 49ers in 1996, but I don't think he made the team, and was never heard from again.
#34 BD Sullivan
Posted 22 May 2010 - 08:01 PM
Regarding Bobby Johnson, this item from the 8/21/87 NYT might explain Johnson's troubles:
"Johnson sprained his left ankle in the first game last year and complained all season of weakness in the ankle. He occasionally missed practice, saying the ankle was limiting him, and that annoyed Parcells. The coach was also upset when Johnson arrived late at Giants Stadium for warmups for the playoff game against the San Francisco 49ers."
Derrick Moore became a free agent after the '95 season and re-signed with the Lions, even though he knew he'd be playing second fiddle to Barry Sanders. He gave this (in retrospect) hilarious comment:
"I had a good season in Carolina, but I'm going from a team where everyone was trying to find their identity and probably won't go to the Super Bowl for several years to one that's knocking on the door." Of course, Carolina reached the NFC title game that season.
#35 Jay Z
Posted 22 May 2010 - 11:23 PM
The Bears had a number of contract issues during the early 1970s.
After the 1971 season, Jack Concannon, Dick Gordon, and George Seals all left as free agents. Concannon signed with Dallas, Gordon with the Rams, and Seals with Kansas City. The Bears received draft choices and players in compensation. Really neither the players or the Bears were helped all that much. Concannon spent two years on the taxi squad, Gordon's career was waylaid by various injuries, lawsuits, and management conflicts, and Seals was mostly a backup. On the other hand, the best the Bears wound up with from all of the draft choices and players was probably tackle Bob Asher.
Going into 1973 training camp, Steve DeLong, Jim Cadile, and Ross Brupbacher all retired on the same day (July 14th.) DeLong would stay retired, but Cadile and Brupbacher would both sit out a year before playing in the WFL. After the WFL experience in 1974, Brupbacher would sit out another full year before playing one more season with the Bears, then retiring again in 1977 training camp. I don't know if Halas was being an extreme skinflint at the time, but something was clearly amiss. Likely the early 1970s Bears were the darkest period in the franchise's history.
#36 coach tj troup
Posted 23 May 2010 - 08:04 AM
#37 Superbowlfanatic
Posted 23 May 2010 - 09:24 AM
All-American Running Back Rich Diana out of Yale was a special teams player for the Dolphins during his rookie year when they lost Super Bowl XVII to the Redskins. He then retired from football to become a doctor, and is now one of the top orthopedists at Yale-New Haven Hospital. When he told Don Shula of his decision, Shula could not understand it and was not happy with his choice.
#38 SeanLahman
Posted 23 May 2010 - 09:31 AM
I did a book on guys whose careers were cut short by injury... it's called the football encyclopedia. The overwhelming majority of guys who enter the league see their careers shortened and their productivity diminished because of injury. When a guy stays healthy and productive for a long time, it's unusual enough that it has to be mentioned.
Someone brought up Ickey Woods, a guy who scored 15 touchdowns in ten starts as a rookie, and led the league with a 5.3 yard rushing average. He's been dismissed as a "flash in the pan" by a lot of observers -- including an NFL Films segment. But I have to tell you, I saw every game Ickey played in that 1988 season, and I've seen a lot of football, and Ickey was one of the best running backs I've ever seen. He was a great downhill runner who had the size and strength to bowl over defenders, but he also had dangerous breakaway speed and was an above average receiver. He had a rare combination of skills, and might have become one of the all-time greats if he hadn't shredded both of his knees by the time he was 24.
It's a sad story, but I can come up with another 15 or 20 guys just like Ickey. Billy Sims. Bo Jackson. Terrel Davis. Curt Warner. Gale Sayers. Jamal Anderson. Robert Edwards. Ki-Jana Carter. On and on and on. That's the story of football.
#39 BD Sullivan
Posted 23 May 2010 - 09:40 AM
In June 1986, Rich Diana was considering making a comeback, but ultimately decided not to do it. Like Mike Reid, his fingers probably made the decision for him, since he was training to become a surgeon. Reportedly, the Steelers were ready to offer him a tryout.
With respect to his original decision, medical school wasn't the only reason for Diana's decision; he also had a chronic neck injury.
#40 97Den98
Posted 23 May 2010 - 12:20 PM
Whatever happened to Kenneth Sims, the Pats #1 pick in 1982? When did he leave the game?
BD Sullivan
Posted 23 May 2010 - 03:37 PM
97Den98, on 23 May 2010 - 01:20 PM, said: Whatever happened to Kenneth Sims, the Pats #1 pick in 1982? When did he leave the game?
Injuries limited him in four different seasons: in '83, he broke his leg, missing 11 games; two years later, he broke his leg again, missing the last three regular season games and the team's playoff run to the Super Bowl; in '86, he hurt his back and missed 13 games, and in '88, he blew out his achilles on the last play of the opening game.
He was released in June 1990, less than three weeks after he'd been arrested for cocaine possession. He had previously flunked drug tests in 1985 and '87, and came to the minicamp out of shape two months earlier.
The Bills signed him in '92, but he was cut in early August.
#42 burroughsmvp
Posted 23 May 2010 - 10:47 PM
Drew Pearson was in the car accident after the 1983 season and, because of liver surgery, retired before the 1984 season.
Have to wonder if 1) his retirement was part of the problem that Gary Hogeboom had with the offense when he took over in '84 and the Cowboys wound up missing the playoffs. And 2) if Drew's "early" retirement is one of the things against him in Hall of Fame talk, especially when people compare his numbers to Lynn Swann.
#43 Teo
Posted 24 May 2010 - 10:05 AM
I believe that the retirements of Pat Donovan and Harvey Martin contributed more to the Cowboys missing the playoffs in 1984; Danny White had good games when he started instead of Hogeboom. Also, remember that they lost both of their games to the Giants that season, and for that reason the Giants made the playoffs and the Cowboys don't (both had 9-7 records, but the point differential was better for the Cowboys). Interestingly, for that point deffential in the 1985 Draft the Giants had the 1st round pick earlier than the Cowboys (even than New York made the playoffs and Dallas don't) and they traded to the 49ers, who picked Jerry Rice, who the Cowboys also coveted.
As for Pearson, since the late 70's he was not the Cowboys top WR (Tony Hill was) and in 1984 they trade Butch Johnson to the Oilers for Mike Renfro, who had a great season for the Cowboys in 1985. I don't think that playing one more season would have helped Pearson's chances to the Hall of Fame.
#44 Shipley
Posted 24 May 2010 - 10:05 AM
Bernie Casey retired after an eight-year career (49ers '61-'66, Rams '67-'68) to pursue an acting career, even though he made the Pro Bowl in his final season. Similar to George Sauer, I seem to recall he made some comments about the dehumanizing aspects of football.
#45 rhickok1109
Posted 24 May 2010 - 10:34 AM
Offhand, I can think of two players who attended medical school during their playing careers and retired at rather young ages to become doctors: Danny Fortmann and Bill McColl. Similarly, Clyde Goodnight retired after only six NFL seasons with the Packers and Redskins to go to medical school at the University of Tennessee.
Fortmann, who's in the Hall of Fame, played eight seasons with the Bears but was only 27 when he retired to begin practicing medicine. McColl also played eight seasons with the Bears and retired at 29.
#46 Gabe
Posted 24 May 2010 - 11:51 AM
Didn't Davey O'Brien quit after two years with the Eagles in 1940 to join the FBI? And what about Whizzer White, the future Supreme Court Justice? I'm trying to remember if his career was shortened in the early 40's due to his pursuing a career as a lawyer of if it was due to the war.
#47 BD Sullivan
Posted 24 May 2010 - 12:25 PM
For O'Brien, this is from the website that gives out the award named after him:
"The Eagles gave him a $2,000 raise, but he retired after the 1940 season to join the Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI)."
For White, it was a little of both: a book on him stated that he joined the Navy during WWII, and once he got out, decided to enter law school rather than return to the NFL.
#48 BD Sullivan
Posted 24 May 2010 - 12:32 PM
Jim Kovach, who played from 1979-85 (mostly with the Saints), actually completed medical school during his NFL career, and also later got a law degree. In his final year, he only saw action in six games, so he probably figured it was time to move on. Here's an article about him from last year:
#49 rhickok1109
Posted 24 May 2010 - 01:17 PM
Cecil Isbell retired after five seasons with the Packers because, he said, he had seen too many players forced to retire because they'd become old and slow. His last season was 1942, when he set an NFL record by throwing 24 TD passes. He and Hutson really revolutionized the passing game. In the offseason between 1940 and 1941, they worked at a paper mill and spent much of their lunch hour perfecting timing routes. Hutson would basically run to a spot, turn to look, and the ball would already be on its way.
#50 Jay Z
Posted 24 May 2010 - 01:28 PM
Fortmann, who's in the Hall of Fame, played eight seasons with the Bears but was only 27 when he retired to begin practicing medicine. McColl also played eight seasons with the Bears and retired at 29.
Doug Swift, Dolphins linebacker, was another one who took this route. He was expansion drafted by the Bucs in 1976, who were apparently unaware of his plans.
#51 burroughsmvp
Posted 24 May 2010 - 03:49 PM
Drew had 47 catches in '83. That was just two behind Tony Hill's 49. Renfro had 35 catches in '84, taking Drew's place. Renfro then had 60 in '85, with White starting most of the games and Hogeboom pretty much out of the picture.
Remember, Lynn Swann finished his career with 34 catches in '81 and 18 in '82.
I think if Drew had played three more seasons and come close to 600 catches for his career (the pace he was on) there would be more Hall talk.
#52 John Roche
Posted 24 May 2010 - 03:50 PM
Speaking of Broncos RBs, what ever happened to Gaston Green? I remember him having a good season in 1991 but he disappeared after that...
#53 Mark Durr
Posted 24 May 2010 - 05:16 PM
John Roche, on 24 May 2010 - 03:50 PM, said:
Speaking of Broncos RBs, what ever happened to Gaston Green?
He did play for Denver in 1992, with his production cut almost in half:
http://www.pro-footb.../G/GreeGa00.htm
He played one season (1996) for the London Monarchs of the WLAF.
According to ESPN's Pat Forde, as of 2009, he had changed his name to Gaston Muhammad and is living in the Atlanta area (scroll to bottom of page for mention):
http://sports.espn.g...03&sportCat=ncf
#54 97Den98
Posted 24 May 2010 - 09:23 PM
In 1993, after the Broncos signed Rod Bernstine, Gaston Green went to the Raiders, but didn't really play much for them.
#55 Teo
Posted 25 May 2010 - 12:00 PM
Another player I was thinking of is Daryl Turner, a wide receiver for the Seahawks from 1984-1987. He caught 36 touchdown passes in only 101 receptions, and didn't played again in the NFL, even that he played in all-non strike games in 1987 and was a starter most of the season.
#56 97Den98
Posted 26 May 2010 - 04:33 PM
TE Ken MacAfee, the Niners' #1 pick out of Notre Dame, retired after two seasons because he was studying to be a dentist or doctor.
OLB Jerrol Williams was a solid pass rusher for the Steelers in the late 80's and early 90's, but after going to San Diego in 1993, it seems like he fell off of the face of the earth.
#57 Rupert Patrick
Posted 26 May 2010 - 05:41 PM
If memory serves Daryl Turner has the highest career percentage of TD's for any receiver with more than 100 catches.
#58 Reaser
Posted 26 May 2010 - 06:13 PM
In the past I wondered what happened to Daryl Turner also, if I'm remembering correct it was a drug and/or alcohol problem??
#59 BD Sullivan
Posted 26 May 2010 - 07:09 PM
Daryl Turner was traded to Cleveland in early August 1988 for a conditional draft pick, but flunked his physical because what was determined to be a congenital back problem. Upon returning to Seattle, he was released. I found a reference to him from a few years ago that stated, "...Daryl Turner, who had his NFL career cut short because of an addiction to crack cocaine."
#60 John Turney
Posted 26 May 2010 - 07:24 PM
Rupert Patrick, on 21 May 2010 - 06:27 PM, said: I don't believe the 1974 goal post change made much of a difference for Field Goals.
I dunno, at the time it seemed like a big deal. I think kickers adjusted in 1975, but that drop was a big deal at the time. Also, check and see if attempt dropped a lot. It worked on the kickers minds more than anything. I think soccer-style kickers were more prone to extra point misses and I always felt that accounted a lot for the PAt dropoff.
I the the 1974 season cannot just be explained with the figures. Also, with the kickoffs moved back to the 35 it hurt a lot of those kickers who didn't have great legs (Gossett, David Ray, etc.)
A comparison in percentage of KOs returned would be an interesting thing to see. So, while I respect your work, I think it shows maybe the dropoff wasn't as big as we remember it. But I disagree with the premise that it "didn't make much of a difference". I think it did make a big difference and it helped put the nail in the coffin for the straight-on kickers. The 1974 kicking rules changed the game in terms of strategy and perfermance, IMO. Of course, folks are free to disagree.
BD Sullivan
Posted 26 May 2010 - 07:34 PM
Jerrol Williams only spent one season with the Chargers, playing in six games, before going to Kansas City in '94, but again only saw action in six games, with no starts. He was then signed by the Packers in '95, but was cut late in training camp. The Ravens (who had moved from Cleveland) signed him in '96 and he started in six games, but that was it.
#62 Rupert Patrick
Posted 27 May 2010 - 04:37 PM
The historical kicking data in the years after 1974 wasn't helped by the 1976 expansion which added Tampa Bay and Seattle, which put two kickers that were previously not good enough to be in the NFL into the league. Both expansion teams had kicking problems in 1976. The drop-off in FG success percentage was higher between 1975 and 1976 than it was between 1973 and 1974. For that matter, the drop off between 1966 and 1967 and 1985 and 1986 were higher than 1973 to 1974. Although there are variations, the FG success average has been increasing steadily since the end of WW2.
In 1974 the number of attempts in the NFL dropped by nearly 40 percent, from 553 to 335. I never considered the KO's being moved five yards back, but that would hurt Kickers who didn't have strong legs, and you do have a point there. It seems to me that a field goal attempt from 47 yards away in 1973 was just as difficult as 1974, the only difference in that the line of scrimmage where the ball was hiked from in 1973 was the 40 yard line an in 1974 it was from the 30. I have the complete make and miss yard data for 1973 vs 1974 and graphed them against each other and there isn't much of a difference.
#63 Jay Z
You can estimate the total number of touchbacks by adding up the number of touchdowns, made field goals, and games played (each team will kick off once to start a half) and subtracting the total number of kickoff returns. The number will not be exact because of scores at the end of a half, onside kicks recovered by the kicking team, and overtime games, but it will be close.
From 1973 to 1974, the estimated number of touchbacks declined from 433 to 129. The Rams did not have any estimated touchbacks in 1974, and the 49ers only had two.
#64 rhickok1109
Posted 28 May 2010 - 09:32 AM
Wow, that's an amazing difference! I would never have guessed that the decline was nearly that big.
#65 Gabe
Posted 28 May 2010 - 09:50 AM
Something that may not have shown up in statistics but would be significant in the cases of placekickers such as David Ray and Bruce Gossett (and perhaps Fred Cox, also, though he actually stuck around for about another 5 seasons), would be the coaches' drop in confidence in their team's ability to score a minimum of 3 points whenever they moved the ball inside the 35 or 30 yard line. Their FG kicker might have the same accuracy for total distance, but if the offense generally needed to make one additional first down to make what was once a sure-bet 35 yard field goal, coaches would be more likely to want a new kicker.
Okay, I guess a possible statistical comparison would be to take the median yard line from which FGs were attempted by year (as opposed to distance of the kicks). Is there a significant difference between 1973 and 74, and then perhaps also several years later when enough younger kickers had been brought in who could kick longer distances? Such differences could indicate whether coaches may have perceived a need to make changes either in offensive strategy or in their place-kickers. But once again, I remember as a viewer that the FG and PAT became less automatic in 1974 and once a coach's confidence in the placekicker went down, so would the kicker's value as an offensive weapon regardless of the statistics.
#66 Kelly1105
Posted 28 May 2010 - 01:13 PM
Have to wonder if 1) Drew Pearson’s retirement was part of the problem that Gary Hogeboom had with the offense when he took over in '84 and the Cowboys wound up missing the playoffs. And 2) if Drew's "early" retirement is one of the things against him in Hall of Fame talk, especially when people compare his numbers to Lynn Swann.
If you look at each player Pearson and Swann you will see that Pearson was more durable and more productive both in the regular season and post season and had a longer career than Swann. Simply stated Swann was elected for being known for several spectacular catches in Super Bowls. To me a Hall of Fame caliber player should have great regular season numbers and post season accomplishments for the period that they played. Swann's regular season numbers are on par with comtemporary players like Bob Chandler. However he was lucky enough to be drafted by the best team of the decade and rode some coattails into the Hall of Fame.
#67 bachslunch
Posted 28 May 2010 - 01:39 PM
There's no question that Lynn Swann is one of the weakest players in the HoF when you look at career length and numbers. He and Paul Hornung are pretty much the only two non-QB Hall-of-the-Very-Good types who got into the HoF because of being on teams with a lot of post-season success. Swann appropriately holds the record as the HoF member with the most times as a regular finalist before being elected -- on his 14th try. And if memory serves, Hornung took 13 tries to get in. Clearly there was no shortage of ambivalence on the part of the HoF voters here.
#68 coach tj troup
Posted 28 May 2010 - 01:51 PM
...from 9-25-1960 through 10-8-1961(16 games) paul hornung scored 240 points. how many other players in league history have scored that many points in 16 games? yes, he played for a motivational coach, great o-line, excellent other backs and receivers, and a superb defense. yet, he scored the points. was born in navy blue & burnt orange...so my allegiance is not in green bay. respect is respect. though mr. hornung took awhile to be enshrined, he is deserving.
#69 BD Sullivan
Posted 28 May 2010 - 02:15 PM
Whatever ambivalence was probably aggravated by the fact that he spent a year on the sidelines in 1963 because of his gambling associations. That year away from the game pretty much ruined him as a kicker: when he returned, he was terrible on field goal attempts (12-38, 4-22 from 30 yards and beyond).
#70 bachslunch
Posted 28 May 2010 - 04:21 PM
It's true that for three years (from 1959 through 1961 inclusive), Paul Hornung did put up numbers that would look solid for a HoF-er, especially when it came to total points scored. But that's a pretty short peak.
Outside of these three years, Hornung's career is in fact very pedestrian. He led the Packers (barely) in rushing yards in 1958 with 310 yards (Howie Ferguson was runner up, gaining 268 yards while only playing in 7 games), but otherwise never did so except in 1959. He finished in the top 10 in rushing yards only twice, during his peak in 1959 (8th) and 1960 (7th). And unlike some other backs in the HoF with lower rushing totals, Hornung's pass catching numbers don't strike me as anything remotely special. His kick return numbers are minimal (10 KR in 1958), so he gets no boost there. He did serve as Green Bay's place kicker, but only had 4 good years as such, from 1958 through 1961. He did not appear in several games in 1962 and as a result had only 10 FG attempts that year -- and in his only other year as a place kicker (1964), he was terrible, making just 12 FGs in 38 attempts.
Career length is no friend to Hornung's HoF case, either, as he played for only 9 years total, which is pretty short by HoF standards of the time when there are no extensively overwhelming stats or postseason honors (see Jim Brown). Hornung went to two pro bowls and was a first team all pro twice, all during that 3 year peak. And two of his 9 years were shortened to 9 games played.
Plus he was suspended for a year for gambling on NFL games, something which would have gotten him banned from Major League Baseball and put on that sport's HoF ineligible list.
For me, it all adds up to a very questionable HoF case at best. I'm not convinced, myself.
#71 Rupert Patrick
Posted 28 May 2010 - 04:51 PM
It couldn't have helped the Packers that Hornung was out in 63, when the Bears won the Western Division, or in 1964 with his poor kicking performance (one of the worst ever), and the Colts won the West. Those were the only two years from 1960-66 that the Packers did not win the West, and they won Super Bowl 2 in 1967 without Hornung or Taylor. I don't know that having Paul Hornung at his peak would have been the difference and got them past the Bears and Colts, respectively, but it is something to think about.
#72 John Turney
Posted 28 May 2010 - 05:45 PM
Jay Z, on 28 May 2010 - 09:22 AM, said: You can estimate the total number of touchbacks by adding up the number of touchdowns, made field goals, and games played (each team will kick off once to start a half) and subtracting the total number of kickoff returns.
Right, I always called the number "kickoffs returned" and the uptick was what I noticed. You estimate is the opposite but we arrive at the same thing . . . the 5 yards made a difference.
#73 John Turney
Posted 28 May 2010 - 05:46 PM
Gabe, on 28 May 2010 - 10:50 AM, said: Something that may not have shown up in statistics but would be significant in the cases of placekickers such as David Ray and Bruce Gossett (and perhaps Fred Cox, also, though he actually stuck around for about another 5 seasons), would be the coaches' drop in confidence in their team's ability to score a minimum of 3 points whenever they moved the ball inside the 35 or 30 yard line.
By watching the games back then you could tell . . . there was a difference in strategy from 1973 to 1974.
#74 John Turney
Posted 28 May 2010 - 05:53 PM
In 1974 the number of attempts in the NFL dropped by nearly 40 percent, from 553 to 335. I never considered the KO's being moved five yards back, but that would hurt Kickers who didn't have strong legs, and you do have a point there. It seems to me that a field goal attempt from 47 yards away in 1973 was just as difficult as 1974, the only difference in that the line of scrimmage where the ball was hiked from in 1973 was the 40 yard line an in 1974 it was from the 30. I have the complete make and miss yard data for 1973 vs 1974 and graphed them against each other and there isn't much of a difference.
Also, there was one postive thing that helped kickers when they moved the hasmarks in (1972). So, that would help most kickers (although David Ray once said he was better with the wide hasmarks because he "concentrated better". So, in the rules, you have some things working against kickers and one thing a couple of years earlier helping them (in theory).
While your point is valid, a 47-yarder is a 47-yarder, regardless of the goalpost . . . the affect was seemingly psychological. Kickers had been kicking one way their whole lives, then, in one year the goalposts move. I think there is a lot of articles you can look up that talk about it. And as has been mentioned, the strategy changes, coaches lost confidence and there were fewer attempts. I dunno, sometimes the changes are more subtle and don't show up in the stats. But, if you see the old games, and read the literature, there was an affect on the kicking game in 1974. The kickers recovered . . . they adjusted but it was a shock to them.
I'd like to see the week to week progessions. (I am not suggesting you do them, that's a lot of work) but beginning with the 6 game preseason I remember the kicking games of teams being a mess. By playoff time things kind of worked themselves out. I think there was more of a difference that the data suggests (which is why I love football . . . the numbers sometimes are counterintuitive)
#75 Rupert Patrick
Posted 28 May 2010 - 06:31 PM
I've already got the data broken down by weeks (I have makes and misses by distance by week for each Kicker), and I will have to take a look at this.
#76 SixtiesFan
Posted 28 May 2010 - 08:25 PM
Paul Hornung was very famous for sure. He was a Notre Dame Heisman winner and that carried over. As a child, I had a subscription to Sport Magazine. There was at least one story per year on Paul Hornung. For example, the Sport Special for the November 1961 issue (which I still have) was "The Rough Road Ahead For Paul Hornung," by Dick Schaap. In 1961, he was as famous as Johnny Unitas and Jim Brown. In 1962, Sport ran a story titled, "What the Packers Think of Paul Hornung." You get the idea.
After Hornung's suspension, Sport's take was a story titled, "I'll Make Them Forget." I don't have it in front of me but my recollection is that this article called Hornung "the Mickey Mantle of his sport."
Dick Schaap did a piece on Jim Taylor in 1962 for the Saturday Evening Post. The tone was very different from what Scaap wrote about Hornung. The first paragraph says:
"One of the reigning myths of professional football is that the game has become so complex only mental giants can play it. To demolish this theory you need merely to look at Jim Taylor, the overpowering fullback of the Green Bay Packers. Taylor is a thoroughly pleasant, likeable young man who spent four years in college and emerged virtually unscarred by education. Yet Taylor is a full-fledged genius when it comes to running with a football. In this basic art he is no worse than second to the Cleveland Browns' mighty Jimmy Brown."
The theme of Schaap's Saturday Evening Post piece was that Taylor was in the shadow of Jim Brown and his teammate, Paul Hornung, "the glamour boy of the Packers."
#77 Ben
Posted 28 May 2010 - 08:40 PM
There is one area where Swann does have an edge over Pearson:
Swann Rec TDs/Games: Regular Season - 51/111, Playoffs - 9/16
Pearson Rec TDs/Games: Regular Season - 48/149, Playoffs - 8/22
During the 76-79 seasons, Pearson went without a touchdown in 8 consecutive playoff games.
Regular Season 74-79
Swann: 39 Rec Tds in 80 games
Pearson: 29 Rec Tds in 87 games
Swann has a higher touchdown rate in variety of ways, and it isn't due to just a few spectacular catches.
As far as being "lucky to be drafted by the best team of the decade", you have to assess his individual play and his contribution to team success. Whether you think he's a HOFer or not, he certainly wasn't just along for the ride.
#78 Gabe
Posted 28 May 2010 - 08:53 PM
Here are several statistical comparisons for place kickers between 1973 and 1974
Bruce Gossett in 1973 made 8 out of 9 attempts from the 30 and 39 yard lines; in 1974, he was 2 for 12 from the 30 to 39 yard line.
David Ray was 9 for 16 from the 30 to the 39 yard line in 1973 compared to 1 for 4 in 1974. It is also noteworthy that Ray was 2 for 5 from the 20 to 29 yard line in 1974, and that Ray only attempted 9 field goals from outside the 20 in 1974, which would attest not only to his diminished effectiveness but also the coach's loss of confidence in the FG as an offensive weapon.
The difference in Jim Bakken's 1973 and 1974 stats are also noteworthy. In 1973, Bakken kicked 32 FGs with an accuracy of 71.9 per cent. In 1974, Bakken kicked 22 FGs with 59.1 per cent accuracy, which would also infer that the lower accuracy rating also meant that the Cardinal staff was perhaps more inclined to go for extra yardage on third down inside opposition territory instead of playing conservatively and settling for what was no longer an automatic FG (admittedly this is speculation). Bakken also missed 6 PATs in 1974, the equivalent of his career from 1962 to 1973. This too would have shaken the coach's confidence in his FG accuracy. Bakken subsequently made adjustments in 1975, and his accuracy rose to 79 per cent. Perhaps Gossett and Ray could have made similar adjustments had their coaches retained confidence in them.
#79 BD Sullivan
Posted 28 May 2010 - 10:31 PM
In 1963, the Packers nearly made their fourth straight championship game appearance, finishing with an 11-2-1 record, while the Bears ended the year at 11-1-2. The Pack's only two losses were to the Bears, but the most costly game was their 13-13 Thanksgiving Day tie to the Lions. Plus, the Bears were able to escape losses in their tie games: against Pittsburgh, they trailed 17-14 midway through the fourth quarter and had second-and VERY long when Dikta grabbed a pass and gained 63 yards to set up the tying FG; against Minnesota, the Vikings led 17-3 at halftime, and fumbled in their territory in the fourth quarter, allowing the Bears to tie it up.
In 1964, Hornung missed extra points in early season ONE-POINT losses to the Colts and Vikings. Then a few weeks later, after losing a back-and-forth rematch to the Colts, the Packers were seemingly back on track the next week, holding a 17-0 second quarter lead over the Rams in Green Bay. L.A. somehow ran off 27 unanswered points to win 27-17, with another costly loss in San Francisco (they had a 14-10 halftime lead and gave up two touchdowns after the break) pretty much ending any hopes of battling the Colts.
#80 John Turney
Posted 28 May 2010 - 10:44 PM
Cool. It would be interesting, maybe you could do a piece for the Coffin Corner . . . when the kickers got their "sea legs" back . . . if there was an upward arc in FG and PAT percentages as the season went on . . . good stuff though . . . you do great research and it is a very interesting discussion.
Teo
Posted 12 July 2010 - 04:33 PM
Sam Hunt, Patriots starting LB each season from 1974-1979, is another name I'm thinking of. Maybe he got injured in the 1980 pre-season.
#98 BD Sullivan
Posted 12 July 2010 - 05:12 PM
Sam Hunt showed up about 20 pounds overweight to training camp in 1980, and was cut right before the season started. Of course, the Patriots said that had nothing to do with his release. Two months later, the Packers signed him after a bunch of injuries in their game against Pittsburgh, but it's obvious he never got in any games.