small towns

[John Grasso]

In another thread (The year the Packers didn't play) the subject of small towns came up.
Now Guilford, NY (home of PFRA) is definitely a small town. - no traffic lights, no businesses (the local
convenience store closed recently), just a few antique stores that are only open occasionally but there
is a post office.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guilford,_New_York
Population in 2010 was 2,922. Population of the entire county is only 50,000.

Yet Guilford for a few years was the home of two international sports research organizations - ISOH (International
Society of Olympic Historians) and PFRA.

I'd be surprised though if more than 10% of the population has ever seen a professional football game in person and I'd
be willing to bet that less than 1% of the population has ever seen an Olympics event in person.

[Rupert Patrick]

In another thread (The year the Packers didn't play) the subject of small towns came up.
Now Guilford, NY (home of PFRA) is definitely a small town. - no traffic lights, no businesses (the local
convenience store closed recently), just a few antique stores that are only open occasionally but there
is a post office.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guilford,_New_York
Population in 2010 was 2,922. Population of the entire county is only 50,000.

Yet Guilford for a few years was the home of two international sports research organizations - ISOH (International
Society of Olympic Historians) and PFRA.

I'd be surprised though if more than 10% of the population has ever seen a professional football game in person and I'd
be willing to bet that less than 1% of the population has ever seen an Olympics event in person.

I'd be surprised if one percent of the American population has ever seen an Olympics event in person. I was going to college in LA during the 1984 Olympics and remember hearing about the costs of the tickets being quite expensive, not that I could have afforded them anyway as I was eating on a 10 dollar a week budget at the time. I've never attended the Olympics, but I always figured that even if it is held in the US, at least half the people there to watch the events are from outside the host country as family and friends of all of the Olympic participants come to the Games to see their friend or family member participate.

I wonder what the percentage of people who have seen a professional football game in person is. I doubt it is much higher than ten percent, but you have that one percent that have been to a couple hundred games. Personally, I never really cared to go to attend games in person; I just don't like very large crowds of people and don't like to deal with the weather and the trying to leave the venue. In addition, the game is much easier to follow on TV, it doesn't take me 20 minutes to leave my seat to get something to drink or eat or to go to the restroom. I know it's probably sacrilege to admit this here, but I've attended less than a dozen pro football games in my entire life and haven't been to a game in over ten years. I much prefer going to baseball games in person, because the stadiums aren't filled to capacity as they are for football games, and the game is much easier to follow, you can clearly see everything that is going on in the game.

[NWebster]

In another thread (The year the Packers didn't play) the subject of small towns came up.
Now Guilford, NY (home of PFRA) is definitely a small town. - no traffic lights, no businesses (the local
convenience store closed recently), just a few antique stores that are only open occasionally but there
is a post office.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guilford,_New_York
Population in 2010 was 2,922. Population of the entire county is only 50,000.

Yet Guilford for a few years was the home of two international sports research organizations - ISOH (International
Society of Olympic Historians) and PFRA.

I'd be surprised though if more than 10% of the population has ever seen a professional football game in person and I'd
be willing to bet that less than 1% of the population has ever seen an Olympics event in person.

Hey, I'm in the 1%!

[74_75_78_79_]

Shifting the subject a tad...is there any other small city in North America (approx 100,000 - 250,000 pop) besides Green Bay or Regina (Roughriders) that can possibly support an NFL or CFL franchise respectively?

[lastcat3]

In another thread (The year the Packers didn't play) the subject of small towns came up.
Now Guilford, NY (home of PFRA) is definitely a small town. - no traffic lights, no businesses (the local
convenience store closed recently), just a few antique stores that are only open occasionally but there
is a post office.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guilford,_New_York
Population in 2010 was 2,922. Population of the entire county is only 50,000.

Yet Guilford for a few years was the home of two international sports research organizations - ISOH (International
Society of Olympic Historians) and PFRA.

I'd be surprised though if more than 10% of the population has ever seen a professional football game in person and I'd
be willing to bet that less than 1% of the population has ever seen an Olympics event in person.

I'd be surprised if one percent of the American population has ever seen an Olympics event in person. I was going to college in LA during the 1984 Olympics and remember hearing about the costs of the tickets being quite expensive, not that I could have afforded them anyway as I was eating on a 10 dollar a week budget at the time. I've never attended the Olympics, but I always figured that even if it is held in the US, at least half the people there to watch the events are from outside the host country as family and friends of all of the Olympic participants come to the Games to see their friend or family member participate.

I wonder what the percentage of people who have seen a professional football game in person is. I doubt it is much higher than ten percent, but you have that one percent that have been to a couple hundred games. Personally, I never really cared to go to attend games in person; I just don't like very large crowds of people and don't like to deal with the weather and the trying to leave the venue. In addition, the game is much easier to follow on TV, it doesn't take me 20 minutes to leave my seat to get something to drink or eat or to go to the restroom. I know it's probably sacrilege to admit this here, but I've attended less than a dozen pro football games in my entire life and haven't been to a game in over ten years. I much prefer going to baseball games in person, because the stadiums aren't filled to capacity as they are for football games, and the game is much easier to follow, you can clearly see everything that is going on in the game.

Been to a couple Chiefs games and if Chiefs games are considered one of the more electric venues in the nfl well then that isn't saying much for the rest of the league's venues. Even at the Chiefs games a lot of the people seemed far more interested in getting their next alcoholic beverage than they were in what was going on on the field. Compare that to college venues where the crowed genuinly often is totally engrossed in the game. The NFL is far more of a television phenomenon than it is a game day experience phenomenon.

[bachslunch]

Been to a couple Chiefs games and if Chiefs games are considered one of the more electric venues in the nfl well then that isn't saying much for the rest of the league's venues. Even at the Chiefs games a lot of the people seemed far more interested in getting their next alcoholic beverage than they were in what was going on on the field. Compare that to college venues where the crowed genuinly often is totally engrossed in the game. The NFL is far more of a television phenomenon than it is a game day experience phenomenon.

This is why I take no stock in online posters who stump hard for a (usually borderline level) player for the HoF and use the “I saw him (usually adding “every game”) play live and can tell you from what I saw that he’s a no-brainer HoFer.”

Er, no — even if you did see the guy live every game of his career, chances are good you were [pick one or more of] ogling the cheerleaders/off at the concession stand/half-bombed on beer/in a bad seat where you at best saw a quarter of the game up close/watched the skill position players instead of the interior lineman you’re touting/etc. instead of actually looking at the player with a critical eye.

[Rupert Patrick]

Shifting the subject a tad...is there any other small city in North America (approx 100,000 - 250,000 pop) besides Green Bay or Regina (Roughriders) that can possibly support an NFL or CFL franchise respectively?

You're looking at the size of the city, not the size of the TV market, which is about a 30-40 mile radius around the center of the city, and that TV market is who would really drive a half hour to see the games. As I pointed out in the other thread, the size of the Green Bay TV market is actually about 900,000 people, and they have, win or lose, perhaps the most devoted fan base of any NFL team. The Packers could be 1-13 and it could be a blizzard in December and Lambeau Field will be packed.

According to the Wikipedia, the city of Salt Lake City has a population of 200K, but the metro area is 1.14 million, and they're the 30th largest TV market. I think they could support a team.

The population of the city of Birmingham is 210K, but the metro area is 1.1 million, and they are the 43rd largest TV market. I think they could probably support a team also.

I live in a cluster of smaller cities that combines to form a pretty big population area, but there is a larger one I can think of that might be able to support an NFL team, and that is Raleigh-Durham-Greensboro, which is known as the Research Triangle, and has a population of just under three million. In that area, you have four major universities (UNC, Duke, Wake Forest and NC State) and that is more basketball country, but I think it could definitely support an NFL team.

The bigger question that nobody has talked about publicly since 2002 is expansion, and I think it's long past the time to start discussing it again. I've always felt the NFL could expand by two teams every 10 years or so without the talent level being diluted due to the increased population. Think about it this way - in 2002, the US population was 287 million people, and in 2019, the US population is 329 million people, a 15 percent increase. Thirty two times 1.15 equals 36.7, meaning if the number of teams kept up with the population increase since 2002, there should be about 36-37 teams in the NFL. Do I think it is time to expand and add two new teams? By all means, absolutely.

I don't see any reason why the NFL couldn't, and shouldn't, over the next 50 years, gradually expand to 40 teams (either four five-team divisions or five four-team divisions per conference) without diluting the talent. Will there be bad teams, bad quarterbacks, and bad coaches? Of course, there were bad teams, bad quarterbacks and bad coaches back in the 1950's when the NFL was only 12 teams. The NFL would be boring if every team had a QB who was on a level of Tom Brady or Drew Brees on it.

College Football does quite well with non-student attendance filling up over 100 stadiums every Saturday, just as the NFL does in 16 stadiums every Sunday. I know the owners will argue their slice of the pie will get smaller but they are overlooking the fact that the pie is also getting larger at the same time.

[JuggernautJ]

To touch on two sub topics we've mentioned:

Expansion: Please, no!
The talent level in the NFL is already borderline overextended.
We don't need to stretch it any further.

And 8 divisions of 4 teams (32 total) works so well for scheduling and fairness it would be inelegant to change.

If you really want more teams let's try another league that could someday merge or compete with the NFL.
Except that has been tried several times recently and been met with disaster.
There's a reason for that. Let's leave well enough alone...

Going to a game: I don't want to say "never" but (probably) never again.
The lack of civility among current "fans" is so extreme I have no desire to ever go to another live sporting event (and that includes NHL, MB and NBA).
The last couple of times I have almost gotten into altercations with drunken bozos.
Previously, my 80 year old step mother had beer poured on her by a Stanford fan (Stanford, of all places) while she was rooting for her alma mater Texas. Had I been there blood would have been spilled.

Why would anyone subject themselves to mistreatment (and possible danger) just to inadequately see something better viewed at home?
I'll leave the sporting venues to the hooligans, thank you.

[JuggernautJ]

The NFL would be boring if every team had a QB who was on a level of Tom Brady or Drew Brees on it.

That's an interesting supposition with which I am not sure I would agree.
I would think better players all around would make for a better game/league. All around.

[74_75_78_79_]

Then again, you got Halifax and Mississauga with populations of 400,000+ and 700,000+ respectively and they very likely will never get a CFL franchise. Same with London or Waterloo Ontario at 500,000+ apiece.