1960's Baltimore Colt defensive line

[Halas Hall]

Curious on what people think about the Hall of Very Good candidacy for these three defensive linemen:

Fred Miller

Ordell Braase

Billy Ray Smith

Thank you.

Nick

[JuggernautJ]

I have considered nominating Brasse for the HoVG...
I think his 3 NFL Championships help out his case. They kind of "bookended" his career, coming in 1958 and '59 then 1968.
Ordell: https://www.pro-football-reference.com/ ... aaOr00.htm

Billy Ray was on the Super Bowl V team: https://www.pro-football-reference.com/ ... itBi23.htm

As was Fred Miller, who had slightly more personal honors: https://www.pro-football-reference.com/ ... llFr00.htm

Brasse was one of two possible answers to my trivia question "Finish the Foursome" of Gino Marchetti, Fats Donovan and Big Daddy Lipscomb (the other being Don Joyce as they, to the best of my knowledge, split time on that Colts line).
No one ever got that one...

[Brian wolf]

Ray Krouse also played great football on the 1958-59 Baltimore defensive line.
I already nominated him for the HOVG. He helped the Lions win a championship as well and was part of a very strong early 50s Giants defensive line. Was traded for other quality players.

[Bryan]

I have considered nominating Brasse for the HoVG...
I think his 3 NFL Championships help out his case. They kind of "bookended" his career, coming in 1958 and '59 then 1968.
Ordell: https://www.pro-football-reference.com/ ... aaOr00.htm

Ordell was a backup to Don Joyce on those 58-59 teams. The 68 championship is a turn of phrase and doesn't take into account the minor detail that the Colts lost to the Jets in Super Bowl III, with Braase in particular being the weak link on defense. I don't see how that helps Ordell's case at all.

As for Fred Miller, I remember Alex Karras saying that he missed out on the pro bowl because some guy he never heard of (Miller) made it instead of him. Watching Karras on film, the guy was unblockable. A constant surge from his DT spot to the QB. In 1967 Karras was 2nd in the NFL in sacks to Deacon Jones, was 2nd team All Pro behind Merlin Olsen, yet Miller made the pro bowl instead of Karras.

[JuggernautJ]

Ordell was a backup to Don Joyce on those 58-59 teams. The 68 championship is a turn of phrase and doesn't take into account the minor detail that the Colts lost to the Jets in Super Bowl III, with Braase in particular being the weak link on defense. I don't see how that helps Ordell's case at all.

Thank you for the insight!
I stand corrected.

[Brian wolf]

Its true that Braase had a difficult game against Winston Hill in SB III but he also had a career day against Dick Schafrath in the NFL Championship game in Cleveland that sent the Colts to the SB. He was all over Bill Nelson. In my view, the team just couldnt handle all the SB media distractions.

Also, early in SB III, Fred Miller gave Namath a good hit after Joe threw his pass that seemed to get Namath's adrenaline flowing for the rest of the game. Other than a sack by Bubba Smith, Joe hardly got hit hard again the rest of the game. A testament to his offensive line and pass protection from Snell, Boozer and Mathis ...

[JohnTurney]

Ordell was a backup to Don Joyce on those 58-59 teams.

He played a lot, Joyce was not a good pass rusher, Braase rotated in
Joyce started but snaps could have been as much as 35-40-50% for
Braase in full games I've seen.

Not enough games are available but in 58-59 Braase did have more
sacks than Joyce.

Joyce, I dunno, just didn't look very athletic---but he was
the starter and did go to the Pro Bowl as Marchetti's
replacement in 1958, so there is that

[Bryan]

Ordell was a backup to Don Joyce on those 58-59 teams.

He played a lot, Joyce was not a good pass rusher, Braase rotated in
Joyce started but snaps could have been as much as 35-40-50% for
Braase in full games I've seen.

Not enough games are available but in 58-59 Braase did have more
sacks than Joyce.

Joyce, I dunno, just didn't look very athletic---but he was
the starter and did go to the Pro Bowl as Marchetti's
replacement in 1958, so there is that

Thank you for the insight!
I stand corrected.

Aha! Now it's my turn to stand corrected.

[JohnTurney]

Aha! Now it's my turn to stand corrected.

You were right, I just chimed in with observations

[NWebster]

Have watched everything I can of this era Colts and it makes me laugh to think people thought it novel that the 90's Cowboys had a rotational D Line as the Colts clearly deployed a rotation in the late 50's. The first series would be Gino, Art, Gene and Don. The second Would be Gino, Krouse, Gene and Ordell. The third Gino, Art, Krouse and Joyce. Then Gino, Art, Gene and Ordell. Rinse and repeat until for maybe one series a game Ordell would replace Gino. So Gino played 90% of snaps Ordell and Joyce ~55% with Art, Gene and Krouse at ~2/3 each.

On the Colts championship teams Krouse and Braase we're pivotal. Donovan and Lipscomb couldn't have performed at the level they did without those breathers and John is right that Braase was a far superior pass rusher to Joyce who was more of a stay at home guy at DE who has some flashes as a Cardinal but was just a guy with the Colts. Braase had to build his strength as a smaller natural guy, which he did, by 1961 Braase actually graded higher than Marchetti. Throughout the 60's Braase was an excellent - think borderline Pro Bowl - DE.

Billy Ray Smith was an excellent but very undersized DT, remember he started as and End with the Rams and Steelers and that's probably the position he was built for. But he was tough and played well inside but just wasn't as strong as the Lilly, Olsen, Grier, Karras, Ladd, Roger Brown types he was just too small.

I think Braase and BR are just below HOVG. From that era I would strongly support Bill Glass for HOVG who never seems to make it.