Andy Piascik's Take on Seniors

[TanksAndSpartans]

Tanksandspartans to be fair the only pre nfl id add would be one of the nessers im not really familar with pre nfl so thats why i went mainly 1920's-present i appreciate your feedback on presnell if you can think of any pre 1920s players i should add let me know what players to add

I'm working on a pair of CC articles covering the best pre-NFL players. The first one I've already submitted and the second I'm still writing, but for now, I stick by the 10 players I mention in John's thread here: https://www.profootballresearchers.org/ ... 5295fb3508

[TanksAndSpartans]

John, Les Richter and John Henry Johnson are lousy Hall of Famers, just two more of many mind-boggling Senior selections made all the worse considering they were picked over Dilweg, Wistert, Barwegen, Emerson and many of the others we talk about here all the time. A few years ago, John Turney stated that he thought Tom Fears and Elroy Hirsch were undeserving, which caught my eye given that John is a Rams fan and I long thought they were slam dunks. I put a lot of weight on all-pro honors and found that John raised a good point, as both are quite light in that area for Hall of Famers.

Jack Butler was a very questionable choice I didn't support and yet another lost opportunity to elect one of the many Seniors who are more deserving.

Dante Lavelli is borderline, in my opinion. He has more all-pro honors than Fears and Hirsch but a chunk of his honors came when pro football was divided between two leagues that didn't play each other (which is also true of Fears). Still, I can't see having only two HOF WRs - Pihos and Speedie - in the period between Hutson and Berry and I don't support Benton and Kavanaugh and am not enthusiastic about Howton or Billy Wilson. I might agree that Howton is more deserving than some combination of Fears, Hirsch and Lavelli but I don't think that is a reason to elect him.

I'm troubled by Doak Walker as a HOFer. He certainly packed a good amount of all-pro honors into a short 6-year career. The question I've long had is, Why was he named first team all-pro in some of those seasons? There is much we can never know about why the coaches, players, scouts, writers, etc., voted the way they did 70 years ago and questioning their selections opens a big can of worms. But as versatile as Walker was, there are several seasons when he was a first team all-pro where I don't see production that warrants it. Was it carryover from a great college career that included a Heisman? Did Joe Perry, John Henry Johnson and Dan Towler lose votes to Walker that they should have gotten because there were people who wouldn't vote for black players over Walker and his All-American (that is, white) image? I don't know but I don't see Walker's career as a Hall of Fame one.

Andy, thanks for the reply - I'm enjoying the discussion. I had 3/7.

Les Richter: I'm not familiar with his career.

John Henry Johnson: I had never thought much about him until the fantasy draft a few years ago. John T. was really happy to get him and considered him the best at his position. The draft is here: https://www.si.com/specials/mmqb-nfl-al ... sults.html. From what I recall it was blocking that elevated him in John's view.

Tom Fears: 1/3 I guessed right on.

Elroy Hirsch: 1/3 I guessed right on. Some people say he made the HOF on the strength of one great season.

Jack Butler: I'm not familiar with his career.

Dante Lavelli: I thought of him as well, but I was thinking you wouldn't have him. I'd be fine with both Howton and Wilson in the HOF. I think WR is a tough position for this era.

Doak Walker: I think because of Dr. Z (although I can't find the quote) I'd heard years ago Walker wasn't a good choice. To play devil's advocate though, he does stand out in the video I've seen. He always seems be making a play as a runner, receiver, passer on the HB option, kick returner, and kicker. I get he didn't dominate in one area, but he was very versatile. I'm fine with him being in.

[rewing84]

Tanksandspartans to be fair the only pre nfl id add would be one of the nessers im not really familar with pre nfl so thats why i went mainly 1920's-present i appreciate your feedback on presnell if you can think of any pre 1920s players i should add let me know what players to add

I'm working on a pair of CC articles covering the best pre-NFL players. The first one I've already submitted and the second I'm still writing, but for now, I stick by the 10 players I mention in John's thread here: https://www.profootballresearchers.org/ ... b3441f4eab

Thanks a Bunch ill add latone to my list along with maybe nesser and one more from:
Homer Davidson
Herman Kerchoff
John Gammons
Ed Young

[TanksAndSpartans]

Sounds good. Thanks @rewing84. If I had to pick one, I'd pick Gammons off that list. In my opinion, he was the best player of his era.

[Bob Gill]

Doak Walker: I think because of Dr. Z (although I can't find the quote) I'd heard years ago Walker wasn't a good choice. To play devil's advocate though, he does stand out in the video I've seen. He always seems be making a play as a runner, receiver, passer on the HB option, kick returner, and kicker. I get he didn't dominate in one area, but he was very versatile. I'm fine with him being in.

Me too. I no longer even pay attention to the Hall of Fame because they've put so many guys in lately who I wouldn't vote for, but I wouldn't hesitate to vote for Walker.

[rewing84]

Sounds good. Thanks @rewing84. If I had to pick one, I'd pick Gammons off that list. In my opinion, he was the best player of his era.

what do you think of these three to add my list

John Gammons

Tony Latone

Ted Nesser

[Bryan]

John, Les Richter and John Henry Johnson are lousy Hall of Famers, just two more of many mind-boggling Senior selections made all the worse considering they were picked over Dilweg, Wistert, Barwegen, Emerson and many of the others we talk about here all the time.

I think JH Johnson is borderline, but I actually thought he was an inspired HOF selection. He looks great on film. He was so fast that the Niners used him at CB for a brief time. He had a late start (25 year old rookie), kind of got lost in the shuffle at SF, helped Detroit to a title but was hurt a lot, and Pittsburgh was the first time he was a heavy-duty RB. Even with a suspect OL, he had two 1000-yard seasons at ages 33 & 35. If you look at his career from a stats/awards standpoint, its not that impressive, but Johnson did some very impressive things during his career.

But I'd like to hear your opinion on him.

[rewing84]

can i get a opinion on someone what are your guys thoughts on cecil isbell

[TanksAndSpartans]

what do you think of these three to add my list

John Gammons

Tony Latone

Ted Nesser

I like it a lot. You'll be the only person with those 3 on your list. Great nod to early history with Nesser and Gammons.

I'm interested in what people think about Isbell too. I personally never liked he always seems to be grouped with the two super senior Packers who have stronger cases (Dilweg and Lewellen). 5 seasons is right on the edge for his era to me. Was it enough?

[rewing84]

Thanks for the Feedback TanksAndSpartans after some research i do agree with you on isbell i dont know why he is lumped in with more deserving packers seniors VL and LD are there any other packer super seniors im missing